Grief in the Family System

Episode Description:

🎧 EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS



(00:46) The myth of “five stages” of grief
(04:55) What “foreboding joy” teaches us about loss
(09:02) Trauma, triggers, and how the body keeps the score
(14:35) What happens when a matriarch or patriarch dies
(21:10) Are we addicted to anxiety? Why we self-soothe with phones, food, or distraction
(28:22) The dangers of unresolved shame
(34:00) Loving yourself: what it actually means
(42:40) A pastor’s boundary: being present without absorbing every burden
(48:33) “I didn’t want to tell you because I didn’t want to get it on you”
(55:05) The messy middle of grief—and why we resist it
(01:02:00) Final takeaway: Show up. Do good. Be kind.

Resources Mentioned

• On Death and Dying by Elisabeth Kübler-Ross
  
• Atlas of the Heart by Brené Brown
  
• The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk
  
• Ambiguous Loss by Pauline Boss
  
• Failure of Nerve by Edwin Friedman
  
• Self-Compassion.org by Kristin Neff
  
• Know Your Roots with Henry Louis Gates Jr. (PBS)
  
• Managing Transitions by William Bridges
  

Memorable Quotes

Pastor Jules Erickson

• “Grief is like silly string—it never goes in a straight line.”
• “We don’t preach open wounds—we preach scars.”
• “We’re as sick as our secrets.”
• “Grief in the family system creates imbalance until someone steps in.”
• “You are worthwhile, you are loved for free, and you are enough.”
• “People are walking around dead—we need to wake up and care for each other.”
• “Put down your phones and go play tag football in the backyard.”
• “The messy middle is where the healing happens.”

Michael O’Connell



• “It's not your fault—but it is your responsibility to change the course.”
• “Some days, grief feels like carrying 150 pounds you didn’t know you were holding.”
• “Even when I didn’t feel it, I had to say out loud—I am enough.”
• “Behind the suit and tie, people can be broken.”
• “You can’t receive love if you don’t believe you’re worthy of it.”

Transcript Disclaimer:

Our episodes of the Good Grief Podcast include a transcript of the episode’s audio for people who are deaf or hard of hearing, if you’d like to scan the material, or have low bandwidth. The text is the output of AI based transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record.

[00:00:00] Pete Waggoner: Welcome everybody to the Good Grief Podcast. We are here at the Hudson Facility of the O'Connell Family Funeral Homes, and we have a great one. This is called Grief in the Family System, and we're joined by Reverend Dr. Jules Erickson from All Saints Lutheran Church in Cottage Grove, correct? That's right.

[00:00:18] Pete Waggoner: And you are the senior pastor? 

[00:00:19] Jules Erickson: I am. 

[00:00:20] Pete Waggoner: What a topic I asked you before we started the segue, are there any. Key points we need to get out. And you said we'll get 'em. Yeah, we'll get 'em. So really excited about your energy and, and what you have to offer. And this is a topic I think, you know, Michael we, we talk a lot about where society fits and how all of this works within a family structure.

[00:00:40] Pete Waggoner: So there will be plenty for us to kick off. Do you want me to turn off over the first question to you and then we'll just kinda get the ball rolling?

[00:00:45] Mike O'Connell: I, yeah, I've got questions for you. Trust me. All right. 'Cause I just want to hear your recap on stuff and. But for those that may not know you with all those initials after your name or before it, no.

[00:00:55] Jules Erickson: For Pete's sake. I know, right? 

[00:00:56] Mike O'Connell: So tell us how you got into grief [00:01:00] and you wrote a book Yes. You gave me, and it's not your I would say traditional book, is it? 

[00:01:06] Mike O'Connell: No, no. It's pretty raw. 

[00:01:08] Mike O'Connell: Yeah. It's not like, like people like me, they say you don't come off like a regular funeral director. And I think you probably get the same as a pastor, don't you?

[00:01:14] Mike O'Connell: I 

[00:01:14] Jules Erickson: do. 

[00:01:15] Mike O'Connell: Yeah. 

[00:01:16] Jules Erickson: Yep. 

[00:01:16] Mike O'Connell: So tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got into grief therapy and in your ministerial work. 

[00:01:21] Jules Erickson: Sure. So back in 19 86, 87, I took my first class in college on grief, and it was, we were assigned on death and dying by Elizabeth. Kler Ross, and that's about all that we had as far as material went.

[00:01:39] Jules Erickson: And I found that there's a lot of books out there, but they're almost all around personal experience with grief. So there's like nothing really solid that you can go to. Not academic. I mean, there's just not a whole lot. Out there. It was all 

[00:01:56] Mike O'Connell: personal perspective. 

[00:01:57] Jules Erickson: All personal perspective. Okay. And Keppler didn't get it [00:02:00] quite right, I don't think.

[00:02:01] Jules Erickson: Mm-hmm. You don't go through stages of grief. You my experience with grief is kind of like a silly string that just mm-hmm. Goes all over the place. You know, it's not a. People think that it's you know, you do this, you do this, you go through this phase, you, and then you end up in, and as you and I were talking the other day, I said, I think grief is actually absorbed over time.

[00:02:22] Jules Erickson: It's like we apply lotion, but you don't put a whole bottle on and then you're done. Correct. You know, it's a lifelong process of trying to navigate the loss and being able to name sort of how you feel and. As I was talking about this at a recent class that I was leading, one of the best resources I think I've found is the Atlas of the Heart by Brene Brown.

[00:02:48] Pete Waggoner: Mm-hmm. 

[00:02:49] Jules Erickson: Who? Oh, oh, we just have five emotions. No. Mm-hmm. You know, we have like, I don't remember what it is, 87 or something like that. Really? Yeah. I can't remember. That's [00:03:00] crazy. I can't remember the actual number. I'm not good with numbers, but one of the, one of the ones I love to describe in the class is foreboding joy.

[00:03:08] Jules Erickson: You know, it's like when you bring your baby home from the hospital and you lay it in the cradle and you think my heart is gonna explode. It's living on the outside of my body and this new being, and then you think, oh crap, something had happened to it. And you hold those tensions, right? That's what, that's what grief is, a lot like that.

[00:03:27] Jules Erickson: And people feel so guilty once they start feeling better. Mm-hmm. The first time they laugh at something or,

[00:03:33] Pete Waggoner: mm-hmm. 

[00:03:33] Jules Erickson: You know, we just had a really tragic death that Mike and I are working on, and, and the, the decedent's wife was like, I lost half of myself. 

[00:03:43] Pete Waggoner: Mm-hmm. 

[00:03:44] Jules Erickson: And it feels like you're never gonna get better, and then you feel bad because you think of something funny that the person did and you start cracking up, you know, and it's just this roller coaster of emotion and it's so hard to hold on to all [00:04:00] of that grief at one time.

[00:04:01] Jules Erickson: So 

[00:04:01] Mike O'Connell: we had, a doctor, I don't know if he had a bunch of initials after his name like you do. Oh, stop it. That he said he put up on the screen and it was, what do you call those tests for personality? MMP or 'cause of the 

[00:04:14] Jules Erickson: Oh, MMPI. Yeah. Yeah. Or he put it up and he 

[00:04:17] Mike O'Connell: said, this is a, a, a normal person.

[00:04:19] Pete Waggoner: Yeah. 

[00:04:20] Mike O'Connell: And he, you know, charted it. And, and then he put on, he goes, this is someone that's having, you would see this as schizophrenic, bipolar. Paranoid and she showed the differences and he goes, the difference. This is the same person, but this is two weeks after she lost her husband. And it just goes to show you.

[00:04:44] Mike O'Connell: He goes, so when you see you're going normally nuts, he says You are. Yeah. Yep. And I think that's what you're kind of saying too, is that we deal with grief every day, right? I mean, all of us do. Yeah. Yep. You can't find your phone. There's a loss in [00:05:00] there, or there's so many different losses in life that when we take a big one and we add it on, now we have something that's, I always say it's like a chemistry.

[00:05:08] Mike O'Connell: You've got A, B, C, and D by themselves. You can say what they are, but when you put 'em all together, you got a pile of SHIT, let's say. Yep. And that's what's overwhelming. 

[00:05:18] Jules Erickson: Yeah. And so what is it? Pauline Boss wrote the book, ambiguous. Loss, I think is the title of it. We could probably look it up and put it in the show notes.

[00:05:29] Jules Erickson: I can't remember the exact thing, but I think she's she's local too, like Minneapolis, St. Paul area. Hmm. And she talks about ambiguous loss in the sense of it's moving, it's getting married, it's sending a kid off to school. Yeah. It's like all of these little things. And then they get into this big pile and you don't know how to parse 'em out.

[00:05:48] Pete Waggoner: Yep. 

[00:05:48] Jules Erickson: And the thing that I've learned about the adrenaline that comes with a loss is that adrenaline actually captures the loss. So now we're talking about trauma. Mm-hmm. [00:06:00] And so when you get reactivated. You know, whatever that trauma is. Mm-hmm. You keep it in your body. I mean, that's, the body keeps a score.

[00:06:09] Jules Erickson: Yep. You know, there's that book too. We have that. Yeah, we have that book too. I don't recommend that book for people that are going through trauma because it's trauma, trauma, trauma, trauma, trauma. It's, it, it a lot. But just knowing that your body keeps the score and you get reactivated all the time, you know, an image will come back or that's why I actually just had a moral.

[00:06:32] Jules Erickson: But I call a moral injury where somebody that I trusted for 25 years lied to me, and it was, it, it activated another betrayal that I had had that's reflected in the book at the very end of my colleague that betrayed the church. By doing something incredibly inappropriate. Mm-hmm. And serving 12 and a half years in prison, you know, you don't get over something like that.

[00:06:59] Jules Erickson: That is a [00:07:00] deep grief. 

[00:07:01] Pete Waggoner: Mm-hmm. 

[00:07:01] Jules Erickson: And so to get reactivated by this moral injury, I ended up going into a treatment program as in the EMDR.

[00:07:10] Pete Waggoner: Yep. 

[00:07:10] Jules Erickson: And man, does that make a huge difference when you get when you've had a trauma and you can't unsee something. You have to be able to see it in order to get through it, and I think most of our society is saying, no, no, no, just put it away.

[00:07:26] Jules Erickson: You know, we don't have to talk about that. You know, and especially within the family system, if I can riff on that for a minute. 

[00:07:32] Pete Waggoner: Mm-hmm. 

[00:07:33] Jules Erickson: You know, the family system is like a mobile. If you look at a genogram and you draw everybody out, the male is square because men are square and the women are around because most of us are around.

[00:07:47] Jules Erickson: But then you drop it down so that the oldest one is on the left side of the, the drawing, and then the middle, and then the youngest, and then you. Trace it out. If you, if you draw out a mobile of a, of a family [00:08:00] genogram, like, who do you think you are with? Lisa Cadre or who's the guy who does the program on PBS Henry Gates Jr.

[00:08:09] Pete Waggoner: Hmm. 

[00:08:10] Jules Erickson: It's not the same. I can't come up with the title in my head right now, but I can see it. Maybe you could put it in the show notes too. It's the PBS show. I got the book, so let's pull that one up. Yeah, yeah. 

[00:08:20] Pete Waggoner: You were, you were correct by the way. That was Pauline Boss. 

[00:08:23] Jules Erickson: Yeah. Good. Awesome. 

[00:08:24] Pete Waggoner: Lost trauma.

[00:08:24] Pete Waggoner: Resilience, therapeutic work with ambiguous losses. 

[00:08:26] Jules Erickson: Excellent, excellent. Louis Gates, Jr. No Know Your Roots, that's what it is. That's a TV show that's on just about every, yeah. 

[00:08:34] Pete Waggoner: Yeah. 

[00:08:35] Jules Erickson: So they talk about the genograms. You can see them draw 'em out. They draw 'em out a little bit differently than I do, but. If you put that, you hang that up like a mobile and you take out the matriarch or the patriarch with that family, according to Bowen Family Systems theory, that's not going to have any sort of balance until somebody steps into the arch position and it'll take between five and seven years.

[00:08:58] Jules Erickson: Really, this is [00:09:00] why we see families that never get together again after the matriarch or patriarch die. Unless it's for a funeral or a special event, 

[00:09:10] Mike O'Connell: because no one wants to step into that role. You're saying 

[00:09:13] Jules Erickson: there's a 

[00:09:13] Mike O'Connell: lot of people that won't or don't know they should or, 

[00:09:16] Pete Waggoner: so there's a hole that isn't filled by somebody.

[00:09:19] Pete Waggoner: Correct.

[00:09:20] Jules Erickson: And if it is filled, there can be balance that comes back into the system. Mm-hmm. But it's, it's not as prevalent as it was back in the day, is what I'm saying. Mm-hmm. Our families are a little more disjointed and. There's also looking at the sibling positioning. You know, the oldest son often is the most responsible.

[00:09:42] Jules Erickson: The middle kid is often a little bit more sensitive and wants things to go kind of their way and mm-hmm. And then you get the youngest who's like. The, the wild one was like, what? What's the problem with everybody? Everybody should get along. It's great. [00:10:00] So were you, were you the youngest? I was the youngest, yeah.

[00:10:03] Jules Erickson: I couldn't tell. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So it's interesting because each one of those kids was raised by a different parent. Right? Because they've learned something different with each of the kids. And you're also looking at a time. You know, I was talking to somebody the other day who had like nine years between her and her sibling.

[00:10:22] Jules Erickson: They're raised by completely different parents. One was raised in the fifties. Mm-hmm. One was raised in the sixties. 

[00:10:28] Pete Waggoner: They almost could be classified as only children too, because of that distance. It is. 

[00:10:32] Jules Erickson: It is. Over, over seven years. It's 

[00:10:34] Mike O'Connell: considered to be, yeah, I was. My brother Dan was eight years older and my brother Tom was 18 years older, so Yeah.

[00:10:40] Jules Erickson: Yep. So that's how that runs. And it you know, if it's loose, seven to nine or can maybe be up to 10. Mm-hmm. It depends. I mean, it, the whole thing with Bowen Family Systems theory is it's a theory, so you, you wrestle with it. Sure. You know, it has triangles in it, it has sibling positioning in it.

[00:10:59] Jules Erickson: It [00:11:00] has, the cascade of multi-generation transmission through the family lineage. So you have somebody who's really musical, might be something that rolls down through all of the, the genes in that family system. It's not just something that you look at as a pathos. You know, it's not, you don't just look at the disease rolling through the family.

[00:11:26] Jules Erickson: But you can also look at the gifts that run through the family system. 

[00:11:29] Mike O'Connell: I would imagine back in the day we had the nuclear family, right? Mm-hmm. Where there was mom and dad and the four kids. But now we have the blended families, less and less institutions of religion, manners. I mean, you can go on and on.

[00:11:49] Mike O'Connell: That has to challenge that family systems to the nth degree and then throw in the internet and then throw in. Before where everyone was somewhat local to their family. Now you have people [00:12:00] that are in different countries even. Yeah. And that's gotta make that really hard. 

[00:12:04] Pete Waggoner: Can I tack outta that? It's almost as though if you, if you take a family unit as like a, a sports team that was on a team, it's almost become an individualized situation.

[00:12:16] Pete Waggoner: You could see a family of four or five at a table in a restaurant, all on devices. Yeah. And there's this like, there's. I mean, that's like a, a family that's nuclear. Yeah. So there's just so many different, I, I I just think everything's become so much more personally individualized, even within the family.

[00:12:36] Jules Erickson: Let's talk about addictions. What do you think is the most addictive thing out in the world? 

[00:12:41] Mike O'Connell: Picking up the phone. Okay. I'm gonna say, okay. I'm gonna say gambling. Ooh. That's a good one. 

[00:12:51] Jules Erickson: I mean, we could, we could name, it's probably, you know, it's funny, like I never even, 

[00:12:54] Pete Waggoner: so I love sports, but like, I never even think about it, but there's so many people 

[00:12:58] Mike O'Connell: that do.

[00:12:58] Mike O'Connell: It's ridiculous. With my journey or [00:13:00] whatever the gambling, I understand that's one of the most difficult ones. I guess I would probably say the internet. Okay. 

[00:13:06] Jules Erickson: All of those answers are right. Overeating over drinking, all the things that we do. But the, the main thing

that is on the top of the list is it's pure anxiety.

[00:13:21] Jules Erickson: That's what we're addicted to. Sure. We're addicted to anxiety. I believe that 100%. And that's, that's why we go to our phones for comfort. Oh. That's why we eat too much food. That's why we drink too much or whatever the addiction is, you know? And you know what I did during 

[00:13:40] Pete Waggoner: the Walls gate last night? What I was having anxiety during the timber rolls game.

[00:13:46] Pete Waggoner: Yeah. I started eating. 

[00:13:47] Jules Erickson: Yeah. Seriously. Yeah, so anytime you, you get activated right, you get this heightened emotion, right? Mm-hmm. That's feeding into your system. So you get your cortisol that gets kicked in and [00:14:00] then you get your dopamine that gets kicked in, and we want a dopamine lifestyle. That's why when my phone pings and or somebody I am, I am wanted, I am needed.

[00:14:11] Jules Erickson: I am not alone. Right. But we're so addicted to screens and you know, I, I just see people like bent over while they're even taking a walk on the path, you know, it's like crazy. They're not even looking at 

[00:14:24] Pete Waggoner: what's around. 

[00:14:25] Jules Erickson: I mean, that's, that's one of the cures is nature. It's, it's getting off your screen.

[00:14:30] Jules Erickson: And right now with the, the incredible political environment that we're in, that we see families that are, are actually divided between red and blue. You know, and they can't even talk to each other and it's like, put down your phones and go play tag football in the backyard or something. You know, 

[00:14:49] Pete Waggoner: if you didn't 

[00:14:50] Mike O'Connell: listen, you could play football all you want.

[00:14:52] Pete Waggoner: Yeah. 

[00:14:53] Mike O'Connell: You know, to, to show your point I'm in a class right now through my journey and one of it was [00:15:00] to, there was a silhouette of a body and they said to draw out where you feel anxiety. And the colors. Yep. There was one that said, draw them out how you feel, anger. 

[00:15:11] Pete Waggoner: Mm-hmm. 

[00:15:11] Mike O'Connell: And the other was how you feel, fear.

[00:15:15] Mike O'Connell: And then the last one was how you feel Joy. The first three, I had it up drawn. It took, I just breezed right through that. And then I sat at the joy one and I had nothing. And it, it doesn't mean I don't have happiness, but joy is a true feeling of. Of yourself and, and, and everything. But we, my point I think is what you're saying is we focus on the negative and we, and we feed off that and yeah.

[00:15:46] Mike O'Connell: It's sad. 

[00:15:47] Jules Erickson: Yeah. And I think part of my role as a pastor is to help people find joy and our church is. [00:16:00] It just has laughter peeling through it all the time. I mean, we are, we don't take ourselves too seriously. We're we really try to meet people where they're at, and there's just me and our staff and council meetings are just rockets sometimes.

[00:16:14] Jules Erickson: It's hard to keep things like, I mean, we have an, we have an agenda, but, but we end up going on all these great rabbit holes and mm-hmm. And we're pretty honest with each other. And that's one of the things that I like about Brene Brown too, is she uses the image of the vault. Like if I tell you something, you're not gonna tell somebody else something mm-hmm.

[00:16:34] Jules Erickson: That I shared with you. Mm-hmm. You're a vault. It only has one door. Mm-hmm. So that's one of the tools that we use to help each other through our anxiety and through our grief, is that somebody will come up to me on a Sunday morning and go, Hey, can I, can you be my vault for a minute? Hmm. And then they're, then they can let it go.

[00:16:53] Jules Erickson: You know, if I'm carrying that for them, then they can let it go. Sure. Now the question ends up how do you let it go? That Right. It's not mine, right? 

[00:16:59] Pete Waggoner: [00:17:00] Yeah, 

[00:17:00] Jules Erickson: it's not mine. And that's where pastors get in trouble and that's where funeral people get in trouble too, I think is when I. We get so enmeshed with other people's family system that we don't know where we end and they begin.

[00:17:14] Jules Erickson: And that's so unhealthy. 

[00:17:15] Pete Waggoner: Wow. 

[00:17:16] Jules Erickson: And one of the lines that I got the story with Dan Vannelli, was Why didn't you cry at my son's funeral? And I said, I'm not your family. But what you didn't know was that I held your son while you went and had lunch until we were ready to take him to the cemetery. You know, I never let him be alone.

[00:17:38] Pete Waggoner: Mm-hmm. 

[00:17:38] Jules Erickson: And you didn't, you don't get to see the backside of the things that we go through. 

[00:17:43] Pete Waggoner: Mm-hmm. 

[00:17:43] Jules Erickson: I mean, there's, there's been plenty of times where I will, you know, get through a service like a terrible suicide that occurred a few years ago that's also in the book. And the, the wife was carrying the urn out and she just like.

[00:17:59] Jules Erickson: [00:18:00] Scream cried down the aisle. It was just visceral. And I, I went straight out the door and sat in the parking lot and just cried for like a half hour. 'cause I couldn't take that much. I couldn't take all of that pain in. And so there's this real balance that I feel like I have to maintain, like professionally, I have to do a job.

[00:18:24] Jules Erickson: But I'm still entering into all these people's pain and it does have a, it does manifest in my body, so you have to take care of it. 'cause once you start doing those drawings, you start realizing, oh, I'm holding that. Yeah, I'm holding that here. Or you know, where does the body keep the score? I'm feeling it in my gut, or I'm feeling it because I'm not breathing hard enough and my parasympathetic nervous system is checked out.

[00:18:49] Jules Erickson: Right. 

[00:18:50] Mike O'Connell: It's a burden to carry that. And I liken it to, because my journey the last couple, three years was a lot of self discovery and, and, you know, hurt people [00:19:00] along the way. And, and for that I, I am so regretful on but it likened it to my life. You know, there was a mask, there was, I was taking care of people, but behind it I didn't think I was enough and I wasn't worthy.

[00:19:15] Mike O'Connell: And I am now seeing that you mentioned that demarcation of. Family and me and all. I thought my whole tank was other people to fill it, whether it be my wife or you or anyone else was to fill my tank. Mm-hmm. Not me. And now I'm seeing that differently and I liken it to when I've talked to people that have been like 300 pounds and they lose 150 pounds and they'll say.

[00:19:43] Mike O'Connell: I can't believe I was carrying that weight that whole time and how different it is now. And that's what it's like now that you, you start to see these different things and you can, I'm learning to let 'em go, but it's not easy. Mm-hmm.

[00:20:00] Because you've had your whole life to understand that and, and you live off that.

[00:20:05] Mike O'Connell: And so it's, it's really interesting. And you made a comment in the book too. And I hear that dad upset with you, but that wasn't about you. That was about him. Oh, for sure. And you mentioned in the book about taking responsibility for your own, your own emotions. Yeah. And not putting 'em on somebody else.

[00:20:23] Jules Erickson: Yeah. We're really good at deflection. 

[00:20:26] Mike O'Connell: Mm-hmm. 

[00:20:27] Jules Erickson: And projection. I like, have you been, wait a second. Have you been talking to my therapist? Just curious. No but it's the oxygen mask, right? You gotta put it on you first before you can put it on somebody else. Mm-hmm. And self-care and self-compassion are two of the biggest areas that I think people in our profession have got to engage with.

[00:20:48] Jules Erickson: Because shame is a Petri dish and if you don't name the shame, it's just gonna grow and grow and grow and grow. Mm-hmm. And. We're as sick as our secrets. 

[00:20:57] Pete Waggoner: Mm-hmm. 

[00:20:58] Jules Erickson: So if we're [00:21:00] not able to have somebody on our one inch by one inch post-it note that we can share our shame with, then it's only going to grow and grow and grow.

[00:21:09] Pete Waggoner: Do you feel, so this has been fascinating to watch the two of you kind of volley back and forth and and you're in, in, in on, on one side of things where people come to you for things in need. Typically. Right, right. Do you find either of you, that sometimes people, because you are a, you're a bit of a celebrity?

[00:21:31] Pete Waggoner: To a degree, yeah. I mean, you know what I mean? Like with it, I mean, people look at pastors and things as, you know, I don't wanna say non-human, but you know, I mean, you're. I, I can, you know what I mean? So I bashed 

[00:21:44] Jules Erickson: my pedestal, dude. 

[00:21:45] Pete Waggoner: Do you 

[00:21:45] Jules Erickson: find, 

[00:21:45] Pete Waggoner: okay. But you know what I mean? I don't. Do you find that people might, they avoid it more than they should because they don't want, they don't know if it's, they're worthy to do that with either of you.

[00:21:56] Pete Waggoner: Do you ever run into that? That we're somehow better than that? They're keeping it [00:22:00] in where you were just kind of mentioning that, you know, you got to. 

[00:22:03] Jules Erickson: I think that we have done a good job of model modeling vulnerability. Right. And we're very careful about how we model vulnerability. When I'm preaching, I don't, I don't preach an open wound.

[00:22:14] Jules Erickson: I preach a scar. 

[00:22:16] Pete Waggoner: Yeah, 

[00:22:17] Jules Erickson: right. And my colleague last week I. Was able to be vulnerable. And I said, do that, but put a disclaimer out there so that people are ready for it. And he did a marvelous job of saying, this sermon makes me uncomfortable. It's, it is gonna probably make you uncomfortable too, because I'm talking about the shame I felt around some childhood.

[00:22:37] Jules Erickson: It had to do with poverty. Mm-hmm. And he addressed it and talked about it in such a way that. I think people were just like, oh, I feel that too. 

[00:22:46] Pete Waggoner: Right. 

[00:22:47] Jules Erickson: You know, I'm not I feel like we're actually a lot more accessible, but I think we're unique. I think you are. I think it's a really, really unique church and people get the vibe.

[00:22:57] Jules Erickson: You are for sure. Because there's a [00:23:00] lot of pastors out there that it's, it's about performance. Imper perfection. Right. And I just think that's bullshit. You absolutely have to just be you. Everybody else is taken. And it, it's a

constant journey of changing and learning. And yeah, as I 

[00:23:14] Pete Waggoner: say, when did you start learning a, this is like, this is where I need to settle in.

[00:23:19] Pete Waggoner: This is a really good place to be in this manner. 

[00:23:22] Jules Erickson: Yeah. I think you wanna talk about all my letters behind my name? I went to Luther Lutheran School of Theology in Chicago. And it was there where I was learning Bowen Family Systems theory. Mm-hmm. And the work of Edwin h Friedman. And that was really, that was the start of it.

[00:23:42] Jules Erickson: That was about 22 years ago, give or take. And man, his failure of nerve. Really hit me and I was like, I wanna know more about this because I was anxious all the time. I was always worried about what everybody else was thinking about me. And then you [00:24:00] have like Brene Brown come out with Rising Strong or whatever during greatly or something like that.

[00:24:04] Jules Erickson: She's like, nobody's watching you getting outta the swimming pool. Like, 

[00:24:08] Pete Waggoner: yeah, we 

[00:24:09] Jules Erickson: don't have to be worried about what everybody else is thinking about us. We just need to stay in our own lane and keep doing our own jams, mm-hmm. I started teaching family systems theory to other clergy. 

[00:24:20] Pete Waggoner: Mm-hmm. 

[00:24:20] Jules Erickson: And it's, it's nothing that, it's not like you teach, teach, teach, like this is, you have to know this.

[00:24:26] Jules Erickson: It's a theory. So you keep. Going back to things and going, yeah, what was that about? Sibling positioning? And you look at it through your lens. So I had to be able to go back to my, you have to be able to go home, right? So I had to be able to go home, draw my own genogram, figure out what was going within my own family system, where I was carrying the hurt and the frustration within my own family, and then resolving that.

[00:24:51] Jules Erickson: You know, like if, if my one of my brothers said something mean to me, I'm walking around with a stone in my shoe. He doesn't know that he [00:25:00] hurt me by that. 

[00:25:01] Pete Waggoner: Mm-hmm. 

[00:25:01] Jules Erickson: Take the pee outta your shoe or stone, you know, get it outta your shoe. He's not thinking about you. He's in his own lane. So stay in your own lane and know where the boundaries are.

[00:25:11] Jules Erickson: And I mean, it's a complex theory, but mm-hmm. Michael Kerr probably does the best job of explaining it in his latest book, which is like. Huge. I mean, it's a massive book. I don't recommend this at home. Don't do that at home. But that's some of the work that I've been doing. Peter Steinke is a big one for healthy congregations and that, you know, if you have a congregation like mine that has read some of those family system books, then they know how to keep clear boundaries.

[00:25:40] Jules Erickson: They know not to get sucked in and 

[00:25:43] Mike O'Connell: do all the things. I would imagine, at least for me in UA, is that. To be able to absorb what you're talking about is you have to have an increased awareness of yourself and you have to love yourself. Absolutely. And I always absolutely, when I first heard that, I thought, what a bunch of hokey [00:26:00] garbage that is.

[00:26:01] Mike O'Connell: Come on, don't we? All right. We think we're the best already. No, that's not loving yourself. That's, that's a defensive mechanism. But if you don't, I, I just, again, this past week, if you don't love yourself. You can't take love. You can't receive love. And that was really hard to hear. It's true though. How do you define that?

[00:26:22] Mike O'Connell: And then so then how, how do you define, 

[00:26:25] Pete Waggoner: I mean, I guess I totally agree, but like how does one define if they love themselves? Like how do they know? 

[00:26:31] Jules Erickson: You have to be able to believe that you're capable, acceptable, worthwhile, not alone, and love for free. Yeah, that you're enough, right? And, and so there are authors out there that can help you do that, but I think the work really starts when, for me, my, my cat, I write, I write and I write and I write.

[00:26:51] Jules Erickson: And then as, as Brene Brown says, is, is the story that I'm writing actually the true story? Or is it the story I'm telling myself? [00:27:00] Mm-hmm. Is that true? So she calls it the shitty first draft. And actually most of us. Write that and we believe it's true, and then we come back to it and we're like, why was I lying to myself about that?

[00:27:13] Jules Erickson: Right. You know, nobody else, this isn't for anybody else. This is just for you. So clean it up. So I think that's part of it. 

[00:27:21] Pete Waggoner: Right on. 

[00:27:22] Jules Erickson: But I was wanna circle back to self-compassion because Kristen Neff, if you go to her self-compassion dot org site, there are guided meditations down. There that talk about self-love mm-hmm.

[00:27:35] Jules Erickson: That talk about self-compassion, that, you know, maybe you really are doing the best that you can be doing at this given state. 

[00:27:41] Pete Waggoner: Mm-hmm. 

[00:27:42] Jules Erickson: Because if, if you're trying to really do a good job and you've been activated and you're, you know, the, 

[00:27:49] Mike O'Connell: the wind saw, 

[00:27:50] Jules Erickson: the wind saw guy that's freaking out because your anxiety is through the roof.

[00:27:56] Jules Erickson: You can't function. Mm-hmm. So how do you, how do you like, [00:28:00] bring it down? I like using meditation, mindfulness, getting outside, going for a swim. Finding good friends to laugh with. Going out to eat with Beth once in a while, you know, just kinda like, get, get re, re-grounded and you have to do that as an individual.

[00:28:19] Jules Erickson: Nobody can do that for you. 

[00:28:20] Mike O'Connell: Mm-hmm. That one of the things that, on that is. The difference between guilt and shame. Guilt is, ah, shoot, I missed that. Darn it, I did something wrong. Yep. I did something wrong. Mm-hmm. 

[00:28:33] Jules Erickson: Shame is inherently I am wrong. Yep. I wrong. There's something wrong, wrong. I'm idiot with 

[00:28:37] Mike O'Connell: me, idiot.

[00:28:37] Mike O'Connell: Yep. I'm a horrible person. I'm mm-hmm. Forget it. I, I'm worthwhile, I'm worthless. That's the difference between that and when people hold that, they create a shell around that and they have defense mechanisms to support it, whether it's, they don't think rules apply to it. Or there's a lot of, like you said, you're what did you call it?

[00:28:57] Mike O'Connell: Not defensive, but you, you, [00:29:00] you support it in an unhealthy way mm-hmm. By your decisions. But it comes back from trauma and all those things, but you inherently think you're flawed. 

[00:29:08] Jules Erickson: The thing is, we're all flawed,

[00:29:10] Mike O'Connell: so what? We're all broken to a different degree. 

[00:29:12] Jules Erickson: Yeah. And so what I mean, the scars make us who we are.

[00:29:17] Jules Erickson: Mm-hmm. So Brene adds on two more. So she says, guilt, I did something wrong. I need to make amends. Shame, I'm inherently wrong. I'm never gonna measure up to anybody, and nobody's ever gonna love me, and I am gonna be alone the rest of my life, and I'm a worthless piece of crap. Mm-hmm. And then you have embarrassment, which is like Mary Catherine Gallagher, you know, like superstar, you know, taking a digger on stage, you know, in her uniform on SNL.

[00:29:47] Jules Erickson: And, and then you have humiliation and that's what somebody tells you that you're wrong or you did something wrong and you feel it as that, that's that activation. 

[00:29:59] Pete Waggoner: Mm-hmm. 

[00:29:59] Jules Erickson: [00:30:00] And that, so the thing that we need to do with those four acts affects is get to know them really well, and then when one of 'em pops up, we go, oh, that's humiliation.

[00:30:10] Jules Erickson: I don't have to own that. That's not, that's, or that was just embarrassment. It was fleeting. You know, like the first day I was in front of the congregation at this, at all Saint Luther Church, I, I had just gotten bifocals and I stepped back and I thought there was a step there and there wasn't. So I just went, boom, you did not right at my ass in front of the congregation and I'm, I just popped back up and I went, stop.

[00:30:36] Jules Erickson: Yeah, and I mean that's, that's why there's, you know, that kinda red thread of joy that slides through our parish is because we, we make mistakes and it'll be like, oh, let's do that again. Let's try that again. 

[00:30:49] Mike O'Connell: You know? For, for me, one of the things that played into my shame was that, and, and I hope nobody takes offense to this, but I grew up [00:31:00] to a God that it was never good enough.

[00:31:02] Mike O'Connell: That I had to keep doing more. Me too. 

[00:31:05] Pete Waggoner: Mm-hmm. 

[00:31:05] Mike O'Connell: And being told by the nuns that I would go to, hell, you know that's not true. Right. Okay. My wife and I just had this talk. I say, okay, yeah, I believe it with my fingers. I'm pushing tight, but there's still, pardon me? It goes, are you sure? I am. Show me, show me.

[00:31:24] Mike O'Connell: And so when you grow up like that, right on. That's shame. Yeah. And you internalize it and then all these other things that come into play just and strengthen that and enhance that shame. And so when somebody says, just gotta do these four things, you go, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it doesn't, it's not a light switch.

[00:31:41] Mike O'Connell: Mm-hmm. You have to work at, you gotta look in the mirror and say, I am worthy. I am a good person. Even when you don't feel like you can, like when I was in treatment and dog 

[00:31:50] Jules Erickson: on people like me. 

[00:31:51] Mike O'Connell: Yeah, exactly. I could not say I'm enough when I was in treatment. I couldn't say it. And, and I was bawling and [00:32:00] she's like, just say it.

[00:32:00] Mike O'Connell: I'm like, and I swore at her. I said, I can't. And she goes, I know you can't, but just try to do it later tonight. That's how strong it gets a hold of you. And yet you can hide behind a suit and tie. 

[00:32:11] Pete Waggoner: Mm-hmm. 

[00:32:12] Mike O'Connell: And people think you got it all put together, but you're broken. And so it's shame. We live in it.

[00:32:18] Mike O'Connell: That's, it's, we all like to, you know. Put people down and make fun of them because we're insecure and it just, it's all tied together. It's like that when those kids used to take binders and they'd wrap 'em up, wrap 'em up, wrap 'em up, and they'd get in this, and then they'd go up to a girl's hair and they'd go, Bing.

[00:32:34] Mike O'Connell: And it'd go P oh my, that's, that's like shame and it's everywhere. Did you do that? No. Okay, good. That's, yeah. No, I didn't, I watched it happen. That's why I 

[00:32:44] Pete Waggoner: fired the uncomfortable laugh there. Yeah. 

[00:32:46] Mike O'Connell: Right. Yeah. 

[00:32:47] Jules Erickson: Like, no 

[00:32:48] Mike O'Connell: disclosure. I did not. 

[00:32:49] Jules Erickson: Okay. I was, as you said, that I was thinking about the movie Goodwill Hunting.

[00:32:54] Mike O'Connell: Okay. 

[00:32:55] Jules Erickson: In the, one of the last scenes where the Matt Damon characters with Robin [00:33:00] Williams character and he said, he said it's not your fault. And Matt Damon's character's like, I know. Deflect, deflect. Mm-hmm. It's not your fault. Yeah, yeah, I know. 

[00:33:14] Mike O'Connell: Yeah. Don't stop talking. 

[00:33:16] Jules Erickson: And he kept saying, it's not your fault.

[00:33:18] Jules Erickson: And then it finally tipped and he, his character lost it. And Rob Williams just let him go. And that's where we need to get to the point. It's not your fault that you were raised that way. It's not your fault that you've had these experiences. It's not your fault unless you need to make amends and make it right because you did something wrong because of guilt, not because of shame.

[00:33:43] Mike O'Connell: There's the old saying, it's not your fault. But it's your responsibility. 

[00:33:47] Jules Erickson: Yeah, 

[00:33:47] Mike O'Connell: exactly. To change the course. 

[00:33:49] Jules Erickson: Own it. 

[00:33:49] Pete Waggoner: Yeah. 

[00:33:50] Jules Erickson: Live it, breathe it. 

[00:33:51] Pete Waggoner: I keep coming back to your scars, comment. 

[00:33:53] Jules Erickson: Yeah. 

[00:33:54] Pete Waggoner: How, however you get them, whether it's how I was pretty much [00:34:00] raised the same way Right.

With the, with the same concept and I still do seriously.

[00:34:03] Pete Waggoner: Mm-hmm. You know, that, that question you asked, but in, in the end, if you're willing to accept those scars as growth. I think that's you don't know why you're getting them, but it's hard to get there, isn't it? Oh, for sure. How do 

[00:34:18] Jules Erickson: you For sure. Oh, for sure. Incrementally, right? Yeah. And you, and just not be hard on yourself.

[00:34:24] Pete Waggoner: Yeah. 

[00:34:25] Jules Erickson: Own what you need to own, but you don't have to beat yourself up all day long. Every day. You just try dust it up. I mean, I, I like using the image of like, in the, in one of the gospels, like I'm not. I am not a huge biblical scholar, but I remember some things in the Bible. I read it when I was in seminary.

[00:34:43] Jules Erickson: I thought it was a good book. Some parts of it. I get it totally. But there's that idea of, you know, knocking the dust off your shoes and going on. If somebody doesn't wanna be in contact with you, knock the dust off your shoes and move on. You know, why do we, why do we keep trying [00:35:00] so hard when we don't need to try that hard?

[00:35:01] Jules Erickson: You know, if somebody doesn't wanna be in our vortex, then we can't force 'em. Why chase? Yeah. We don't need to be chased. Right. And that's the, the image that I wanna leave you with is I, I have this beautiful picture in my office and I, I, it's this dirty lamb that's all covered with mud and muck, and it's like in the middle of this forest, this completely lost.

[00:35:27] Jules Erickson: And then. In the very back you see obscured image of a shepherd running after that sheep. That's the image that I think about in my faith is I'm constantly that lamb that goes wandering off and God is constantly chasing after me to say, you are my beloved. Where'd you go? Come here, let's get you cleaned up.

[00:35:55] Jules Erickson: It's hard 

[00:35:55] Mike O'Connell: to believe that when you 

[00:35:56] Jules Erickson: feel you're flawed, you are worthwhile. You're [00:36:00] capable, you are loved for free. You are not alone. And I'm sorry that you feel that you have to measure up all the time because you don't. You're enough. 

[00:36:11] Mike O'Connell: That's a, it's a tough, it's a tough journey and it, it's not, not a light switch.

[00:36:16] Mike O'Connell: It does take time to. To understand that. 

[00:36:19] Jules Erickson: And you don't have to go out alone. We're not meant to. That's, that's the other thing that I think is really important for us to remember, is that we kind of have this Jesus, Jesus and John Wayne explains a lot. This is a book about how we got here with religion and politics and, and that independent, like I can do it myself mentality that rugged individualism is such bullshit.

[00:36:46] Jules Erickson: Where we need to get back to and what I'd like to continue to curate my own community is a sense of belonging. 

[00:36:55] Pete Waggoner: Right. 

[00:36:55] Jules Erickson: And a longing for the holy mystery. You don't have to know all the things. [00:37:00] 

[00:37:00] Mike O'Connell: You had mentioned anxiety being an addiction, and the opposite of addiction is connection. Connection. Yeah. Now absolutely.

[00:37:09] Mike O'Connell: For me, one of my things that I would do is isolate. Yeah. Now why would I isolate? Because 

[00:37:20] Jules Erickson: you're 

[00:37:20] Mike O'Connell: not worthy. You don't think you're worthy, and nobody else can hurt you. Then when you by yourself. Yep. And then that all that is, is you're sitting in the toilet. Wow. And then you ruminate, and then you just get in this shame cycle, and then it just feeds itself.

[00:37:35] Jules Erickson: Yeah. Perseveration is like a real jam. Yeah. That's a fancy, you know, word that. Your, you got your dribble on the wheel in your brain and you can't mm-hmm. Turn it off you monkey mine. Oh God, yes. You know, perseveration Lord, 

[00:37:49] Mike O'Connell: there's nothing worse. Yes. Do you have a copay for this? 'cause I feel like this is kind of like my weekly Wait, 

[00:37:55] Jules Erickson: wait.

[00:37:56] Jules Erickson: I gotta consult the DSM six here. How many box stop did you [00:38:00] get in 1499 

[00:38:00] Mike O'Connell: You get for your, yeah. Right. So here's one question I have for you for people listening and kind of what we talked about. When people have gone through traumatic events. 

[00:38:11] Jules Erickson: Yeah. 

[00:38:12] Mike O'Connell: And you think of some of the worst of the worst, how can a loving God have that happen?

[00:38:18] Jules Erickson: Oh, for Pete's sake. I know, right? It is not God's fault. Shit happens. 

[00:38:23] Mike O'Connell: Yeah. 

[00:38:24] Jules Erickson: Yeah. The question isn't why me? Why not me? 

[00:38:28] Mike O'Connell: Okay. 

[00:38:28] Jules Erickson: And actually I, when I'm teaching my system stuff, I will also say to people. At some point, you gotta let go of the why. Mm-hmm. That's the thing. That's danger. That's dangerous. Mm-hmm.

[00:38:43] Jules Erickson: Can can, can you stop? Because you can never, you, you're never gonna know. 

[00:38:47] Mike O'Connell: When Dan was killed, I remember pulling over, I was bawling and I was screaming at him. 

[00:38:53] Pete Waggoner: Mm-hmm. 

[00:38:54] Mike O'Connell: Calling him the F word. I mean, I was, I was mad. How would you let this happen? Yeah. And [00:39:00] then after I settled down, I said, I'll make a deal with you.

[00:39:04] Mike O'Connell: I won't ask why anymore. I'm gonna ask how and how are you gonna help me through this? Yeah. Yep. And whenever I do feel struggled, now I will say, you said you wouldn't forsake me. Show yourself right now. 

[00:39:19] Jules Erickson: Isn't that why we have lament Psalms? I the Bible? My God, my God. Why have you forsaken me? 

[00:39:25] Pete Waggoner: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:26] Jules Erickson: I mean, there's a reason why the prophets are constantly lamenting. You know, they have to tell the hard story to somebody, but I think when we get sucked into the why, that's part of the addiction. 

[00:39:38] Mike O'Connell: So for that person that is just like, you know, and I hate that whole. BS line that you know, you know what?

[00:39:46] Mike O'Connell: God's got a plan. No, we don't know right now, but God's got a plan. No. Oh, he's got a plan to make me miserable. I don't like that. The euphemisms are Yes, horrendous. And I think that's just to shut people up. Like I just say that because I don't want any more [00:40:00] conversation. But for the person that's struggling, that has gone through some maybe horrendous stuff.

[00:40:04] Mike O'Connell: Mm-hmm. Okay. And they're struggling with their faith and they say, how? Why? What would you tell them? 

[00:40:13] Jules Erickson: Sit with me. Don't be alone in your grief. You know, let's talk this thing out, because I think people need to be heard, and if you need help out there, if you're feeling desperate, there are people out here.

[00:40:32] Jules Erickson: In the world that do grief counseling, that do EMDR, that do group therapies, that do the things that you like. Like I did the grief class last night. You know, the whole idea is you're not in this alone. Mm-hmm. And you can share your burdens with other people. I, it was funny, I, I'll tell you a quick story.

[00:40:53] Jules Erickson: I went into my, my my therapist's office and I'm like, I just, I don't, I don't want to tell you the [00:41:00] thing. And she's like, why? I said, I don't wanna get it on you. I, I just, I don't want you to, I don't want it to have an impact on you. And she does. She looks at me and she goes first of all, it's my job.

[00:41:14] Jules Erickson: And secondly, she's like, bring it on.

[00:41:20] Jules Erickson: And I just was like, oh my gosh, this. How how many times did we say that to people? Like, bring it on, like, we can help you with this thing. You don't have to carry it alone. And I'm like worried about hurting my therapist. Right. That's awesome. People just know 

[00:41:35] Pete Waggoner: how, have to know how to find that.

[00:41:38] Jules Erickson: It's really hard to find a good therapist. Right. And it, I'm not gonna tell you mine. Okay, that's fine. I mean, I won't 

[00:41:46] Pete Waggoner: understood. I I gotcha. They're undercover and black market walk. 

[00:41:52] Mike O'Connell: You know, I think the other thing too is that, and I thought this for me, is that sometime we, we put too much [00:42:00] emphasis on Show me.

[00:42:01] Mike O'Connell: Show yourself. Yeah. And we look around and there's great people in our world right next to us and he's saying, you dope. I put them there and I think of when I was busy one time. I had, I stopped at a funeral in this Toots Holly. She was just the dearest thing. She was like 94. And she came up to me and she said, I was wondering if I can do your your ironing.

[00:42:24] Mike O'Connell: I said, excuse me. She goes, I know how busy you are. And it was just like, oh my gosh, there's beauty around us. But we love to focus on that anxiety, that negativity. And that half empty glass more than we do the beauty that surrounds us and that the God gives us these things, but we're too narrow focused with the filter that we don't see 'em.

[00:42:47] Pete Waggoner: Yeah. Open your eyes. It's kind of like what you said, the nature. People are in nature that's staring at their phone and it's the whole point of what that can do for you. It's almost like deciding to have your eyes open and, and look and see. 

[00:42:59] Jules Erickson: [00:43:00] Yeah. I feel like a lot of people. In this world right now or walking around dead.

[00:43:07] Pete Waggoner: Mm-hmm. 

[00:43:08] Jules Erickson: And, and I am constantly trying to say, let's wake up. Right? Let's care for our neighbor. Let's, you know, do some outreach. Let's, you know, what does that look like? What does it mean to love yourself and love others? Mm-hmm. You know, follow. What did Jesus do? You know, not, not W-W-J-D-I don't mean like that.

[00:43:31] Jules Erickson: Because I think it should be, what would Jesus have us do? Like that's the attitudes. Yeah. Depending on which ones you gotta pick your author there. But you know, the, the main piece of this is like, show up, do good, be kind. That's our, that's our motto at all. Scenes show up, do good, be kind. 

[00:43:53] Mike O'Connell: And the reward is a hundred fold.

[00:43:56] Jules Erickson: Yeah. 

[00:43:57] Mike O'Connell: Yeah, great stuff. [00:44:00] I think you've got, I think religion and whole has got its work cut out for 'em because less and less people are churched, less and less people like ritual, just like our industry. And so you almost have to, I don't wanna say entertain, but I see that's why the big churches, I think, attract people is because they can get lost in the mix.

[00:44:22] Mike O'Connell: They don't have to do anything but go there. 

[00:44:25] Jules Erickson: Yep. 

[00:44:26] Mike O'Connell: And they can leave.

[00:44:27] Jules Erickson: So let me, let me tell you about All Saints in that perspective. All right. I, I like in and I don't mean any disrespect to Eagle Brook or Crossroads or any of those bigger churches, I just see them as like Home Depot. 

[00:44:40] Pete Waggoner: Mm-hmm. 

[00:44:41] Jules Erickson: You know, it's a big box church and all Saints is more like Terry's Hardware and Hastings where I walk in there and they're like.

[00:44:49] Jules Erickson: Jules, wait, what do you need now? Yeah, 

[00:44:53] Mike O'Connell: what are you looking for? Tell me what you're doing. 

[00:44:55] Jules Erickson: Just can, if you can explain this better so I can help you. [00:45:00] And I mean, I had a really great one the other day and she's like, you're a challenge. And I said Thank you. I said, but I know what I need to do now. 

[00:45:10] Pete Waggoner: I resemble that.

[00:45:11] Jules Erickson: But you know, that's that idea of, of being able to really, I mean, when I go to Home Depot, it's like, where are the orange? People, you know, where's the apron? I, I don't see, I don't see any, you down, down three aisles 

[00:45:25] Pete Waggoner: to see someone that turns his back and runs. Yeah. Right. Where's the button to hit? Where they sit down and 

[00:45:30] Jules Erickson: it all seems like, you know, we're like, what do you need?

[00:45:34] Jules Erickson: What are you looking for? Try the church on Weird around. Is, is it a good fit or is it not a good fit? Because it might not be a good fit if you're narrow-minded if you don't like those people, whomever those people are. Mm-hmm. And if you're not willing to participate in the life of the community, that's, this isn't the church for you, then.

[00:45:52] Jules Erickson: Mm-hmm. 

[00:45:52] Pete Waggoner: But 

[00:45:53] Jules Erickson: if you wanna get engaged and you wanna take care of people and you wanna, you know, have a voice when it comes to immigration. And, [00:46:00] and be able to say, I wanna help somebody by putting things in a backpack so that they may have dignity. If they're deported, then you know this is a church for you.

[00:46:10] Pete Waggoner: Mm-hmm. I read somewhere, and I can't remember where, that the Gen Z group is turning more toward church and faith. Are you seeing that at All Saints? 



[00:46:25] Jules Erickson: I am seeing a lot of people show up at our church because we're reconciled in Christ and they're tired of the traditional church that says, no, you can't be.

[00:46:37] Pete Waggoner: Mm-hmm. 

[00:46:38] Jules Erickson: G-B-L-T-Q-I-A plus. Mm-hmm. Any of that category or I've also noticed that we have had more people that are on the spectrum that are showing up, and it's okay to sit through church wearing your headphones. Sure. I, you, I still want you to be a part of the community. So yeah, I think [00:47:00] that's where we talk about meeting people where they're at.

[00:47:03] Pete Waggoner: Very cool. 

[00:47:04] Jules Erickson: But I think it's because we're welcoming, you know, and, yeah, our, we actually, our, our membership has increased since COVID because of the reconciled in crisis. So pre COVID, 

[00:47:15] Pete Waggoner: you're more, now that we're kind of all back, you're more than what you were before COVID, 

[00:47:20] Jules Erickson: it's hard to tell because we're online as well.

[00:47:25] Pete Waggoner: Oh 

[00:47:25] Jules Erickson: yeah. So we have like as many people worshiping in person as we do worshiping online. 

[00:47:31] Pete Waggoner: So now you're doubling it up. 

[00:47:32] Jules Erickson: Yeah. But it, it's always a moving target. And, and it's funny you know, other pastors will come up to me and go, how big is your church? I have so many responses that I'm not gonna say right now.

[00:47:45] Jules Erickson: You say like, square footage or what do you want? Yeah, no, what I say is it's a really healthy congregation, right? Mm-hmm. That, that's excellent. That is my bar. You're healthy, you're not creating, you're not having [00:48:00] the meeting in the parking lot after church. Oh, sure. It's everything is said there. I know they still happen, but our parking lot really sucks right now.

[00:48:09] Jules Erickson: So they don't spend as much time there. And if you'd like to contribute to our parking lot fund, I.

[00:48:22] Pete Waggoner: That's good stuff. You can edit that out. No, let's keep it, that's just, that's taking it where it's at, isn't it? Come on, let's, yeah. Right on.

[00:48:30] Mike O'Connell: Michael, any other thoughts? No, I appreciate you, you have a book and if anybody wanted that book about 

[00:48:36] Jules Erickson: practical grief stories of loss and love. It's on Amazon and it's the only place where I have it right now.

[00:48:43] Jules Erickson: Okay. But yeah, I, I did want to add one last thing that I mentioned. This is. This is Joseph Campbell. This is William let's see, managing Transitions William Bridges and Brene Brown, and that's that there when we, when [00:49:00] we encounter grief, there's three stages. There's the end, boom, the death, then there's the luminal zone, or what we call the messy middle.

[00:49:10] Jules Erickson: And then there's the new beginning. Yeah. And people just don't wanna remain in the messy middle because it's hard. Mm-hmm. 

[00:49:19] Pete Waggoner: Do they, sometimes we kind of mentioned it. Do they run out of there quicker than they should 

[00:49:23] Jules Erickson: Always. 

[00:49:25] Pete Waggoner: And then they have to return. 

[00:49:26] Jules Erickson: You have to go back. You have to go back, yeah. And, and, and Russell.

[00:49:30] Jules Erickson: Mm-hmm. And gain strength and understanding and self-compassion, and do the work of meditation and mindfulness and really know the thyself. And then accept yourself for who you are as the beautiful, shining person that God created you to be. And then trust in that. And then you can step out into your new adventure.

[00:49:50] Jules Erickson: But that liminal or that messy middle is, that's why we have the addictions. Mm-hmm. They don't wanna remain there. They wanna, oh, I'm just gonna pick up my phone and distract [00:50:00] myself because I am a wordle 

[00:50:01] Mike O'Connell: king or queen. You know, none of us wanna sit in the discomfort. We wanna self-soothe and get out of that.

[00:50:08] Mike O'Connell: Yep. Stay there. What I just heard this week. Yeah. 

[00:50:10] Jules Erickson: Yep. Stay there. That's what I say. Stay there. And that's what, that's what EMDR is too. You know, you have to stay in that uncomfortable trauma and let your body feel it so 

[00:50:23] Mike O'Connell: that you can heal it. For some of those, listen and don't know what e MDR is. It's a, it's an eye movement that helps you reprocess trauma.

[00:50:30] Mike O'Connell: And the way I was described of it is you have a filing cabinet. It. Your body remembers a trauma a certain way, and what you want to do is pull that file back out and refile it in a better place that you remember it, not like the way you remember it in more of a healthy process. 

[00:50:48] Jules Erickson: That is the best definition of EMDR that I've heard yet.

[00:50:52] Mike O'Connell: Stick around. I got more. 

[00:50:53] Jules Erickson: Wow. 

[00:50:54] Mike O'Connell: Yeah. 

[00:50:54] Jules Erickson: Wait, maybe I need a copay. Yeah, yeah. We'll call it even. 

[00:50:59] Pete Waggoner: Of course. [00:51:00] Yeah. So good. 

[00:51:02] Jules Erickson: This is good grief. Yeah. You know, some grief is really bad. Mm-hmm. And I think the podcast name is a good 

[00:51:09] Mike O'Connell: one. When I talked to you right away, I knew you probably saw my eyes light up.

[00:51:14] Mike O'Connell: Yeah, I did. Because I just thought this would be perfect way of talking and doing it in a different way, versus, I try to do everything with kind of a, a lighthearted but in a way people can understand it and wanna listen. To, 

[00:51:27] Pete Waggoner: yeah. 

[00:51:27] Mike O'Connell: So I'll come back if you want 

[00:51:29] Pete Waggoner: me. Oh, you're, you're the best. Yeah. We'll bring her for the embalming show.

[00:51:33] Pete Waggoner: Oh, yeah. No, 

[00:51:33] Jules Erickson: no, no, no, no. I don't do people body parts. 

[00:51:37] Pete Waggoner: Okay. That was a hard, no, that was, I am, I am very, very clear 

[00:51:41] Jules Erickson: on my boundaries. I take it as a maybe. Okay, so you're saying there's a chance. Yeah. They say, you saying No, that's a, 

[00:51:49] Mike O'Connell: that's a hard stop. Oh, that's good. Stop. You are a blessing and I hope people listening.

[00:51:55] Mike O'Connell: Can they reach out to you? 

[00:51:56] Jules Erickson: Oh, 

[00:51:56] Mike O'Connell: sure. Okay. Yeah, go. 

[00:51:58] Jules Erickson: Go to the All Saints [00:52:00] website. It's all Saints CG as in the cottage grove.org and go to the staff page and 

[00:52:08] Pete Waggoner: Excellent. Lemme 

[00:52:08] Jules Erickson: know. 

[00:52:10] Pete Waggoner: Awesome stuff. Thanks for joining this edition of the Good Grief podcast. Of course, you can check us out online at O'Connell funeral homes.com.

[00:52:21] Pete Waggoner: And for the two of you, thank you for such a great enlightening program here today. It was fantastic. Thank you. Thank you.