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[00:00:00] Pete Waggoner, Host: Welcome in everybody to the Good Grief podcast.

[00:00:02] Pete Waggoner, Host: Along with Michael O'Connell, I'm Pete Waggoner, and we have one today that I am really excited about. We talked about why or the decision-making that goes into the cremation process, but we didn't really talk about what happens. And this is something, it's a bit of a mystery, I think, to just about everybody that's listening or watching this podcast, and I love this topic and, let's get into it.

[00:00:24] Pete Waggoner, Host: This is- Good ... this is an exciting one. So- 

[00:00:26] Mike O'Connell: It's different in the idea that people are fascinated with some of the aspects of death, so they like to know this but when it's them and talking about feelings, then it's like- 

[00:00:35] Pete Waggoner, Host: Time out.

[00:00:35] Pete Waggoner, Host: It's always cool if it's over here or over... If, but if, if it... Yeah. So what happens the moment someone passes away? How do you end up getting the body and then how what happens? 

[00:00:45] Mike O'Connell: Okay. I'll just go from the very beginning. We're sitting here. You and I are just chatting. We're in the office working on obituaries, or maybe it's 2:00 in the morning and you're sleeping.

[00:00:55] Mike O'Connell: Phone call comes in. Nursing home, hospital, medical examiner, and there's [00:01:00] a death First, we'll look and see if they're pre-arranged. We've talked about the benefits of that, 'cause that helps us get the ball rolling right away. But we'll determine if there's a traditional casket burial or a cremation. If it's the latter, now we have to break it down even more.

[00:01:14] Mike O'Connell: And so, for example, is there gonna be a viewing? Now, if some people picked cremation for, "Oh no, we're not going through that, uh, public thing and caskets," and okay. But there's a meet in the middle. There's what we call a private family view, and the private family view is no embalming, no caskets. They're dressed and placed on a, on a table, and people can come in, say their goodbyes.

[00:01:34] Mike O'Connell: Now, because there's no embalming, we can't control the environment, if you know what I'm saying. Some people will change, and they'll change to the point where we can't have a private viewing. I've had that. 

[00:01:45] Pete Waggoner, Host: How quick does that happen? 

[00:01:46] Mike O'Connell: Depends on the cause of death. 

[00:01:47] Pete Waggoner, Host: Oh, really? 

[00:01:48] Mike O'Connell: Some people, and I say this with all respect, have died before they died.

[00:01:52] Mike O'Connell: Their body has shut down. Their heart just doesn't know it yet. And- 

[00:01:56] Pete Waggoner, Host: So this could be a few days prior. 

[00:01:58] Mike O'Connell: Yeah, and so when you get [00:02:00] them, it's... They have an odor. Mm. It looks like they've died a day or two ago. So we go down those trees, if you will, decisions. Then once we have that idea and we know it's cremation, every state has to have the body inspected, viewed, and authorized.

[00:02:17] Mike O'Connell: Every state. Wisconsin, you can't cremate for 48 hours, period. Minnesota, it's close to that. The doctor signing the death certificate who's been, the person's under their care has to talk to the medical examiner For the medical examiner to get the story, the background on him to say, "Okay, we can cremate."

[00:02:34] Mike O'Connell: And the reason is, is I remember my dad would always say, "There was a lot of people that died of lead poisoning, and they had , no idea why 'cause they cremated the body." And lead poisoning came by the way of a bullet. 

[00:02:44] Pete Waggoner, Host: Oh.

[00:02:44] Mike O'Connell: You know, you watch Dateline, and I always laugh. It's like, "Well, they had the perfect marriage."

[00:02:49] Mike O'Connell: And of course, then they go into that, but when there's foul play, a lot of times they'll go, " Well, I wanna cremate." Because you cremate and- You get rid of the evidence ... you think you think you took care of the evidence, but sometimes [00:03:00] you don't. 

[00:03:00] Pete Waggoner, Host: And- And that's, is that why there's that waiting period mostly?

[00:03:02] Mike O'Connell: 100%. 

[00:03:03] Pete Waggoner, Host: Okay. 

[00:03:03] Mike O'Connell: Yeah. There's no... That's just fact. Mm-hmm. And so during that time, like I said, every county is different how they go about that. Some are hands-on, some are more, administrative. They do it through phone calls and hospital records. So we get that authorization.

[00:03:17] Mike O'Connell: If there's a family view, we do that within a certain timeframe. Time isn't our friend on that. So we have to do that within a relatively short time. We have a cooler, and so what does a cooler do? It just slows the process down a little bit. 

[00:03:29] Pete Waggoner, Host: How cool is it? 

[00:03:30] Mike O'Connell: Uh, it's really neat. Sorry. 

[00:03:32] Pete Waggoner, Host: If- 

[00:03:32] Mike O'Connell: I had to.

[00:03:32] Mike O'Connell: It's- 

[00:03:33] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah ... rim shot in- 

[00:03:34] Mike O'Connell: Um- 

[00:03:34] Pete Waggoner, Host: Okay, 

[00:03:35] Mike O'Connell: go ... no, it's, it's, you know, freezing is 32 and we could put it below that. 

[00:03:38] Pete Waggoner, Host: Right. 

[00:03:39] Mike O'Connell: We could certainly put it below that, but probably around low 40s we keep it- Okay ... 35.

[00:03:43] Pete Waggoner, Host: And that's enough to stagger it a little bit. 

[00:03:45] Mike O'Connell: Much like a fridge. Yeah, 

[00:03:46] Pete Waggoner, Host: yeah, yeah. 

[00:03:47] Mike O'Connell: Things are cool, but they're not too cold.

[00:03:48] Mike O'Connell: So we go down that road. Again, nothing invasive. 

[00:03:52] Pete Waggoner, Host: Mm-hmm. 

[00:03:52] Mike O'Connell: You know? What, what we'll do is make sure their mouth is closed or their eyes are closed so it's not a, a scary thing, 'cause that could be... And [00:04:00] if there's a situation where things have, I'll say, gone south, 

[00:04:03] Mike O'Connell: And it's hard for us because you'll be like, " Mike, you told us this morning or last night that we could do this." I'm like, "Yes, at that point we thought we could, but there's been changes."

[00:04:14] Mike O'Connell: And for everyone that's different. Some changes can happen, like right now. There's a thing called tissue gas. Just gonna put it out there for what it is. A body will expand ' cause the gas comes from the deterioration of cells, and by that they give off carbon dioxide. 

[00:04:30] Pete Waggoner, Host: Oof. Seriously? 

[00:04:31] Mike O'Connell: Yeah. I mean, you...

[00:04:32] Mike O'Connell: When you see a body in the lake surface- 

[00:04:34] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah ... 

[00:04:35] Mike O'Connell: that's why. 

[00:04:35] Pete Waggoner, Host: Got it. 

[00:04:35] Mike O'Connell: Um, now, you know, with experience, we can see some of those factors beforehand, so we can kind of forecast and say, "You know, if we're gonna do this, we need to do it within 12 hours," 'cause, and some of it they say, "Well, we have a granddaughter coming from Milwaukee."

[00:04:49] Mike O'Connell: Okay, that'll probably work. Tomorrow morning may not. 

[00:04:52] Pete Waggoner, Host: They better be on their way now. 

[00:04:54] Mike O'Connell: Yeah. Now, there's... O- one of them is discoloration, that, you know, it, it depends on when you [00:05:00] die. Like, if you have a massive heart attack and there's, it stops right there your face will get very red. And with embalming, you know, in the beginning we can clear that.

[00:05:09] Mike O'Connell: When there's lividity or staining, we can't take it out. 

[00:05:12] Pete Waggoner, Host: Mm-hmm. 

[00:05:13] Mike O'Connell: And so sometimes we'll put a little baby powder on, you know, to whiten or soften that. And we'll say, " Things have changed." You know, we, we try to be frank with them, but not overtly like, " Oh my gosh, you just told me..." Some families want that, and we'll, we'll navigate that road a little bit.

[00:05:29] Mike O'Connell: So we'll make them as presentable as possible, and then we'll tell them, " Here's the situation. Do you still wanna do it?" " Yes." Okay. So like I mentioned, they're placed in what we call an alternative container. Every body has to be in a box of some sort, whether a casket or for cremation, and the reason is...

[00:05:46] Mike O'Connell: It's got a couple reasons. The first one is dignity. I'll ask you, you came in the front door today. Did you stop and go, " Dang, these guys see flesh-eating bacteria. They see AIDS and hepatitis. They see COVID. They see all these [00:06:00] horrible, you know, these new viruses, that bacteria, the MRSAs. Am I safe here?" Yeah, you are. 

[00:06:05] Pete Waggoner, Host: Never thought of that. 

[00:06:06] Mike O'Connell: Because in the back end, we're making sure bodies are sanitized or disinfected And that's not by invasive, it's, by disinfectants. So there's that reason. There's another one, it's called dignity. So if we have cremations and the medical examiner, the police department, or if you walked in there, but you can't legally, people aren't s- you know, strewn about, hanging there- Just sitting there

[00:06:26] Mike O'Connell: with an arm off a table and- Yeah ... the mouth's open, and they're placed in that alternative container, encased, so they're not out for everyone to see. And on that box, we communicate a few things. Their name has to match the, the ID bracelet we put on them, after they die. Then we ask questions.

[00:06:43] Mike O'Connell: Are they a veteran? Because what we do at our crematory, which we put in 2005 'cause we saw the change and embraced it, is we'll cremate a flag with it. 

[00:06:51] Pete Waggoner, Host: Oh. 

[00:06:51] Mike O'Connell: Because how do you get rid of a flag? You retire it by cremating it or burning it. We think that's respectful way to do it with a veteran.

[00:06:57] Mike O'Connell: And did they want any of those [00:07:00] keepsakes, like fingerprints? Once you cremate, you can't go back. Even though I did go to a person's house and tried to lift prints, went to the sheriff's department, went in their booth with the cyanoacrylate, the super glue, uh, to take prints off. But you can't go back once that is done.

[00:07:14] Mike O'Connell: Another thing would be jewelry. You don't wanna cremate jewelry, so we spend special care on making sure that's accounted for. We'll talk to the family, "Is there jewelry on mom right now?" " No." We'll double-check, though, so somebody doesn't forget like, "Oh, I didn't know you put Mom's ring on.

[00:07:29] Mike O'Connell: I... We took it off yesterday." It can happen. It has happened, and, that's why there's a checks and balance system. And then we'll put some factors on that help the cremation. Weight, because if you're a large body, 300 pounds, we have to do different things. Because if we were to cremate somebody and not had the preparations beforehand, we're gonna have smoke.

[00:07:49] Mike O'Connell: And it's not because there's a new pope in town. It's smoke because the afterburner can't keep up. 

[00:07:53] Pete Waggoner, Host: Okay. So can I- 

[00:07:54] Mike O'Connell: Yep. 

[00:07:55] Pete Waggoner, Host: So if it's a, if it's a larger person It's, th- is there a threshold? [00:08:00] Like, how, how do you know, like, mm, this is a little too big? 

[00:08:03] Mike O'Connell: If we have somebody that... And again, it depends on how they died a little bit.

[00:08:07] Pete Waggoner, Host: Mm-hmm. 

[00:08:07] Mike O'Connell: Um, I had someone that still surprises me, that they were in, you know, a body bag, and it was actually, the funeral home was in the cities- and the body was down by Madison. And they called us and they'd say, "Would you just take this call over?" I've never had that happen. That's crazy. 

[00:08:23] Pete Waggoner, Host: It 

[00:08:23] Mike O'Connell: is. They didn't wanna take care of it.

[00:08:25] Mike O'Connell: So we went down, brought the body back. The poor gentleman was just emaciated- Mm ... which means they don't have all that, the fat and all that. And he was missing a leg. And so when we put him in, he jumped. So normally, maybe 1675, maybe 1400, maybe, you know, 1800 is your th- kinda where you wanna be. He went past 2000, up to close to 22,000.

[00:08:47] Mike O'Connell: Are you talking degrees here? Excuse me, 2200,

[00:08:49] Pete Waggoner, Host: yeah. W- w- why did it jump? Like, what caused it? Was it the- Because he had- Was it a chemistry 

[00:08:54] Mike O'Connell: thing? He had been at the medical examiner's office for months. 

[00:08:58] Pete Waggoner, Host: Oh my gosh. 

[00:08:59] Mike O'Connell: And he [00:09:00] created internal and external gases 

[00:09:02] Pete Waggoner, Host: And he was in a bag 

[00:09:03] Mike O'Connell: Yep And you- So it contained it 

[00:09:05] Pete Waggoner, Host: So it, it probably- 

[00:09:06] Mike O'Connell: Yep. It was throwing gas on a fire.

[00:09:08] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah. 

[00:09:08] Mike O'Connell: Yeah. So to get back to your question about the- Sorry ... the weight. No, no, no, just intervene 'cause I just think of this. 

[00:09:13] Pete Waggoner, Host: Okay, so we're back on the you haven't, we haven't even gotten him in yet. Y- so now you've, you've gone through saying, " Hey, this is, this is dynamic.

[00:09:21] Pete Waggoner, Host: It changes, and it can change d- during the day." 

[00:09:24] Mike O'Connell: Minute by minute. 

[00:09:25] Pete Waggoner, Host: Right. Okay, and then do most people wanna come see the body before then, or is that kind of a thank you, but no thank you scenario there? Hmm 

[00:09:34] Mike O'Connell: What do you get there? So you're wondering with cremations how many have private views? 

[00:09:38] Mike O'Connell: 20%.

[00:09:38] Pete Waggoner, Host: Okay. So 80% of them say, "No, we're good. Go for it." Okay. 

[00:09:42] Mike O'Connell: Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:42] Pete Waggoner, Host: Uh, do you have any regrets from people that did that? 

[00:09:45] Mike O'Connell: Yeah 

[00:09:45] Pete Waggoner, Host: Wishing they would have? 

[00:09:46] Mike O'Connell: Wishing they would have viewed, wishing they would have not cremated, yes. Have I had anybody have regret when they had a burial? No. 

[00:09:53] Pete Waggoner, Host: Really? 

[00:09:53] Mike O'Connell: Cremation's, uh, it's a personal thing, but it's also permanent, we'll get in the options a little. We'll touch on that, [00:10:00] too. But going back to the weight thing, the threshold might be 300. Now, you have to have them the first one on a cold, call it retort oven, right? That's more of a term you might recognize. Because if you put them on the second or for sure third or fourth if you're doing that many in one day, you're gonna...

[00:10:17] Mike O'Connell: It's gonna be out of control. You're gonna have issues. Because think of a hot fire, okay? It's really hot, and you're putting something flammable on it. It's not pouring gas that'll just flash and be gone. You're putting something with substance on it that's grease. Fat's grease, right? And water, but grease, and that's flammable.

[00:10:36] Mike O'Connell: So if you put that in, let's say in the second one, okay? You already have a retort that's got, it's got memory. It's held onto that in the bricks. 

[00:10:44] Mike O'Connell: Bricks are like of aluminum and different things that, hold the heat so it, it doesn't touch the walls and then you got a, a fire. So it retains that heat, and so it's quick to go up.

[00:10:54] Mike O'Connell: Now, for efficiency, that's a good thing. 

[00:10:56] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah. 

[00:10:57] Mike O'Connell: You really want that in succession because the [00:11:00] bodies cremate more efficiently. But if you put that body in that's 300 pounds, it can't keep up with cooling it. Smoke. I was a firefighter, right? 

[00:11:08] Pete Waggoner, Host: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:09] Mike O'Connell: What is smoke? It's carbon.

[00:11:10] Mike O'Connell: It's incomplete burning. That's what it is. You think of a fire, okay? And a campfire, right? 

[00:11:15] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah. 

[00:11:16] Mike O'Connell: You blow on it, what happens? It burns faster- Yeah ... and it burns cleaner. It kind of gets 

[00:11:18] Pete Waggoner, Host: bigger, yeah. 

[00:11:19] Mike O'Connell: Okay. So a cremator has, here's the, here's the, um, the floor of it. The heat and smoke will go past, go down, go under, go down, under and up, up the stack.

[00:11:31] Mike O'Connell: And once it goes up the stack, it gets hit by an afterburner. You've heard planes have them, right? 

[00:11:36] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah. 

[00:11:36] Mike O'Connell: Some people think it's, uh, I heard, I mean, all the... no, that's the thrusters to make sure you slow down. 

[00:11:40] Mike O'Connell: An afterburner, because they're using that much gas and energy, is to burn off that 

carbon 

[00:11:45] Pete Waggoner, Host: Okay.

[00:11:45] Pete Waggoner, Host: So then when that happens, does that keep the smoke from coming out? 

[00:11:48] Mike O'Connell: Yes. 

[00:11:48] Pete Waggoner, Host: Okay. 

[00:11:48] Mike O'Connell: That's the goal. 

[00:11:49] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah. Oh, well. 

[00:11:50] Mike O'Connell: So if you put that body in and it can't keep up with that heat and the combustion rate, you're gonna have smoke come out. Have we? Yeah. If the machine all of a sudden is, [00:12:00] is... turns out of, out of sync, we'll have some smoke come out.

[00:12:03] Mike O'Connell: We have. 

[00:12:03] Pete Waggoner, Host: In the room? 

[00:12:04] Mike O'Connell: Uh, out the stack. 

[00:12:05] Pete Waggoner, Host: And if it goes out the stack, is that a, a environmental issue or...? 

[00:12:09] Mike O'Connell: Well, it's... I mean, you go by and you see smoke coming out of different things. It's more of a heart attack because there's not a damn thing you can do about it. 

[00:12:16] Pete Waggoner, Host: It is what it is. 

[00:12:16] Mike O'Connell: Yes. But try telling me that when it's happening.

[00:12:19] Mike O'Connell: Okay? 

[00:12:19] Pete Waggoner, Host: Then you have one. 

[00:12:20] Mike O'Connell: That's what I'm saying. It's a heart attack. 

[00:12:21] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah. 

[00:12:22] Mike O'Connell: Because you can't go in and say, "Well, just, just, uh, do this or that or blow on it." 

[00:12:26] Pete Waggoner, Host: You can't stop it. 

[00:12:26] Mike O'Connell: You can't put water on it. 

[00:12:27] Pete Waggoner, Host: No. 

[00:12:28] Mike O'Connell: That doesn't even work. 

[00:12:29] Pete Waggoner, Host: Are you able to see it happening, or is this in enclosed? 

[00:12:32] Mike O'Connell: It's enclosed.

[00:12:33] Mike O'Connell: They... The old ways, you used to have a peephole. 

[00:12:35] Pete Waggoner, Host: Right. 

[00:12:36] Mike O'Connell: I remember them when they used to... when we used to do them in the cities before. They'd have just a little peephole the size of a credit card, and you'd peek in there to make sure they're cremated You know, crazy How long does 

[00:12:44] Pete Waggoner, Host: that process take? 

[00:12:45] Mike O'Connell: The cremation process, you know, it used to take three hours.

[00:12:49] Mike O'Connell: Now, with more technology, yeah, they probably go a little over two, two and a quarter. 

[00:12:55] Pete Waggoner, Host: Still, that's a long time. 

[00:12:56] Mike O'Connell: You think of a body burning, and bone- But 

[00:12:58] Pete Waggoner, Host: you're getting it 

[00:12:59] Mike O'Connell: all the way ... bone [00:13:00] density, so- It's 

[00:13:01] Pete Waggoner, Host: crazy ... 

[00:13:01] Mike O'Connell: the cremation process has what we call light fire and like a deep fire. I'll just say those.

[00:13:07] Mike O'Connell: And so when somebody's put in, and they're in that box, remember, right? Cardboard box, got their name- Yeah ... on it. And one thing I didn't mention is we put a medallion with that body, titanium medallion so it doesn't melt, so you can read it later. 

[00:13:20] Pete Waggoner, Host: So that's who that is. 

[00:13:21] Mike O'Connell: Yep. It's got a number. 

[00:13:22] Pete Waggoner, Host: That's the foot/ankle thing.

[00:13:24] Mike O'Connell: Or that thing you put- It goes with that, 'cause that'll burn off. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But when you pull those- But, but that's 

[00:13:25] Pete Waggoner, Host: the same identifier Yeah. 

[00:13:26] Mike O'Connell: So I have a heart attack when I'm doing it, and you come in after and like, " Who's in there?" Our paperwork- No, I know ... but that's always gonna show.

[00:13:33] Mike O'Connell: That's always gonna go with the cremated remains. 

[00:13:35] Pete Waggoner, Host: Right. 

[00:13:35] Mike O'Connell: So before we cremate we need four forms. Our worksheet, and our worksheet, what it has on there is who we're cremating. Where'd they die? Minnesota, Wisconsin, again, is different, and so we need to know that. Is there a private view? And then the other things we need to know, is there jewelry on them?

[00:13:50] Mike O'Connell: If there was jewelry, where'd it go? Where, how is it accounted for? Now has a family said, " Don't take that off. They never took it off. Don't take it off"? Okay 

[00:13:59] Pete Waggoner, Host: They [00:14:00] have 

[00:14:00] Mike O'Connell: They've left it on. 

[00:14:01] Pete Waggoner, Host: What happens to it? 

[00:14:01] Mike O'Connell: Just melts. 

[00:14:02] Pete Waggoner, Host: Okay. 

[00:14:03] Mike O'Connell: Gold is an alloy. 

[00:14:04] Mike O'Connell: If you have a gold ring, that's one thing.

[00:14:06] Mike O'Connell: But people always say, "Well, I want you to take my teeth out." It's not the same gold. No. It's not worth- 

[00:14:11] Pete Waggoner, Host: It's not worth a- No ... anything. 

[00:14:12] Mike O'Connell: No. So the other things on the list is did you want a fingerprint, and were they a veteran? And so those are the checks and balances. 

[00:14:19] Mike O'Connell: So once that paperwork is all set, so you got your worksheet, family authorization.

[00:14:24] Mike O'Connell: And that's gotta be the person that controls the right of what we call disposition, cremation. You can't just say, "Well, the neighbor came in," or The son's gonna stop in." That's gotta be the wife or husband unless they're incapacity where it's the power of attorney. But so we have to have the right one, and we have to have the coroner with the proof they authorized it.

[00:14:44] Mike O'Connell: And then there's called a transit permit. That's gotta be with every body, whether it's a casket or cremated remains. It's gotta follow them around. Those are the four pieces of paper. So now we're gonna come back to the cremation. We have a lift. You know, it's a hydraulic lift because the retort itself is about this high.[00:15:00] 

[00:15:00] Pete Waggoner, Host: Oh, really? 

[00:15:00] Mike O'Connell: How do you get them in there? 

[00:15:01] Pete Waggoner, Host: I mean- 

[00:15:01] Mike O'Connell: They used to back in the days in the cities have them on a board, and then they'd do the old, uh, tablecloth. And that's how they'd get them off. And- 

[00:15:09] Pete Waggoner, Host: Wow ... 

[00:15:10] Mike O'Connell: can you imagine doing that to a 300-pounder? There'd be quite a few hugs. 

[00:15:13] Pete Waggoner, Host: You'd need like five people doing that.

[00:15:14] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah. Yanking on it. 

[00:15:15] Mike O'Connell: So body's on this lift, and it's on one of those rollers you might see at a- Oh, a distribution center on the rolls, you know? 

[00:15:22] Pete Waggoner, Host: Mm-hmm. 

[00:15:22] Mike O'Connell: Where they slide. 

[00:15:23] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah. 

[00:15:24] Mike O'Connell: It's on that. And then we have these cremation, we'll call cremation rollers. They're about this big, you know, about three inches- Mm-hmm

[00:15:32] Mike O'Connell: two and a half maybe, and heavy-duty cardboard. So when you get that lift up higher than the floor and you place it in, you lower it down on that roller, and now you could use your pinky to put them in. 

[00:15:42] Pete Waggoner, Host: Oh, wow. 

[00:15:43] Mike O'Connell: Versus- 'Cause the roller's doing the work for you ... trying to push them on the floor of the retort.

[00:15:44] Mike O'Connell: Yeah, imagine that. And imagine that when it's hot. 

[00:15:46] Pete Waggoner, Host: Oof. 

[00:15:47] Mike O'Connell: They'll catch. 

[00:15:48] Pete Waggoner, Host: Oh, geez. Yeah. 

[00:15:48] Mike O'Connell: Uh, if you do three a day or maybe even four- It's, it's piping ... I've done more than four when it was COVID. Right. It was horrible. But you put them in, they are combusting right now. Sure. It's crazy. But let's say you're doing [00:16:00] five, okay? During COVID, I did five or six or it was just constant, 'cause we couldn't keep up. And you can't say, "Well, let's do them tomorrow," 'cause we were getting more coming in. And so you can't put it off. So yeah, the temperatures were getting to 2,200, and like that fifth one, you put them in, you don't even have to put the flames on.

[00:16:18] Mike O'Connell: It's that hot. They'll cremate themselves. 

[00:16:21] Pete Waggoner, Host: Crazy. 

[00:16:21] Mike O'Connell: It is. 

[00:16:22] Pete Waggoner, Host: So it's not even on. 

[00:16:23] Mike O'Connell: Nope. The afterburner is. 

[00:16:24] Pete Waggoner, Host: Right, but like- 

[00:16:25] Mike O'Connell: But it runs so hot that it just... And when it's that hot, there's hardly any smoke anyway because there's just... carbon's getting- 

[00:16:31] Pete Waggoner, Host: Does it still take two and a half hours for that one? 

[00:16:33] Mike O'Connell: No. 

[00:16:33] Pete Waggoner, Host: It goes faster.

[00:16:34] Mike O'Connell: Hour and 45 maybe or- Yeah. Yeah. So during that time, you know, I knew a lot of the dispatchers at 911 center, and I'd call and say, "Hey, I'm not on fire, so if anybody calls, we're all good." Because when you did that many, you would have flames shooting out three feet Like, uh, like those, uh, torch lights, cigarette lighters, but they're torch.

[00:16:54] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:16:54] Mike O'Connell: That's how it was shooting out the top. 

[00:16:56] Pete Waggoner, Host: That much. 

[00:16:56] Mike O'Connell: That much heat. 

[00:16:57] Pete Waggoner, Host: That much flame. So what do the neighbors, do they see it? 

[00:16:59] Mike O'Connell: [00:17:00] The fire? 

[00:17:00] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah. 

[00:17:00] Mike O'Connell: I'm sure they did, but we never got a complaint on it. 

[00:17:03] Pete Waggoner, Host: They're just there. '

[00:17:04] Mike O'Connell: Cause it's clear. 

[00:17:05] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah. 

[00:17:05] Mike O'Connell: You don't see anything. Now, if you walk past your car, let's say today, you walk past your car, you're gonna see no smoke.

[00:17:11] Mike O'Connell: But you're gonna see on the car you know, it's the heat. 

[00:17:13] Pete Waggoner, Host: The waves. 

[00:17:14] Mike O'Connell: The waves, yeah. Now, okay, so we got the roller, got the medallion in there, and we place him in door down, and those walls are probably eight inches thick.

[00:17:24] Mike O'Connell: Heavy-duty, non-combustible bricks and that ha- You know, there's a lot of, uh, regulations to how it can go.

[00:17:30] Mike O'Connell: It can't be touching a part of a wall and- 

[00:17:33] Pete Waggoner, Host: Does it get inspected? 

[00:17:34] Mike O'Connell: No. 

[00:17:34] Pete Waggoner, Host: So it's just- 

... 

[00:17:35] Pete Waggoner, Host: In and done. 

[00:17:36] Pete Waggoner, Host: Interesting. 

[00:17:36] Mike O'Connell: And I guess the reason I'd say no is because look at our politics. They can't pass anything, right? 

[00:17:41] Pete Waggoner, Host: Right. So- 

[00:17:42] Mike O'Connell: And it's not like there's one little law about cremation. No, it's tied to a bunch of others, and they can't pass them, and it just sits there.

[00:17:49] Pete Waggoner, Host: Okay. 

[00:17:50] Pete Waggoner, Host: So, so there's not r- a ton of regulation on You get it in, get it right, and they just say, "Go with it." 

[00:17:54] Mike O'Connell: Yeah. Matter of fact, uh, I think it's still the same. You don't have to be licensed to... You have to be [00:18:00] licensed as a facility to be able to cremate, but the operator, last I knew, didn't have to be. 

[00:18:05] Pete Waggoner, Host: I could go do it- Yeah

[00:18:06] Pete Waggoner, Host: if you showed me. 

[00:18:07] Mike O'Connell: Yep. Now, four, five, six, seven. We have seven staff members that are cr- trained crematory operators No, it's not that all seven are, going through a revolving door to cremate. We have two that are designated. That's what they do. A third one is backup, and then we've got a few directors as emergency.

[00:18:26] Mike O'Connell: We also can look at it differently from a body aspect. So we have quite the depth. You think of a football team and depth, but- A roster ... yeah. So we have a depth on that. Okay, so- 

[00:18:36] Pete Waggoner, Host: So, uh, in a non-COVID time, are you talking three, four a day? 

[00:18:40] Mike O'Connell: Well, no. 

[00:18:40] Pete Waggoner, Host: Or how 

[00:18:40] Mike O'Connell: many? Because we don't do that many. 

[00:18:42] Pete Waggoner, Host: Okay. 

[00:18:42] Mike O'Connell: Yet, I wish we were like a place that does, mechanics on a car. Yeah. They're either booked out four weeks, right? I know. They know their schedule. 

[00:18:50] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah. 

[00:18:50] Mike O'Connell: Um- 

[00:18:50] Pete Waggoner, Host: You don't. You get the call at 2:30 in the morning. 

[00:18:52] Mike O'Connell: We might not turn a wheel for several days- 

[00:18:55] Pete Waggoner, Host: Right ... 

[00:18:55] Mike O'Connell: and then get seven in two days.

[00:18:57] Pete Waggoner, Host: Right. 

[00:18:57] Mike O'Connell: That's tough. So- 

[00:18:59] Pete Waggoner, Host: Spurty ... 

[00:18:59] Mike O'Connell: [00:19:00] very much.

[00:19:00] Mike O'Connell: The reason I bring that up is we don't have any cremations. Two days from now we have seven. Okay, now we have to do three. Yeah. Like, normally, you know, it's not like, "Well, yeah, let's do, we'll do them for the next 10 days." 

[00:19:11] Pete Waggoner, Host: No. 

[00:19:11] Mike O'Connell: No. Sadly maybe I won't speak locally, but we've had, you know, people that have died down south, and they've called us.

[00:19:18] Mike O'Connell: Maybe they were pre-arranged, maybe they weren't, but they want us to oversee everything, which we can. 

[00:19:23] Mike O'Connell: And we find one of our family funeral homes that have the same standards as us that we would call a sister station, if you will. They'll do the cremation. But other times when families just call the local one down there, I've seen it where they haven't cremated for three weeks.

[00:19:38] Mike O'Connell: They're that busy. Arizona, California Yeah, 

[00:19:40] Pete Waggoner, Host: because it's aged 

[00:19:41] Mike O'Connell: They don't care 

[00:19:42] Pete Waggoner, Host: It's aging too 

[00:19:43] Mike O'Connell: Yeah. You- I always say, you drive by here at 2 o'clock in the morning, lights are on maybe, and you see me or somebody working or cremation going on at 3 o'clock in the morning, 'cause we care. 

[00:19:53] Mike O'Connell: You know?

[00:19:53] Mike O'Connell: Would you want your loved one just sitting 10 days, uh, two weeks? 

[00:19:56] Pete Waggoner, Host: Nope.

[00:19:56] Pete Waggoner, Host: Nope. Okay, so, you're on the rollers.

[00:19:59] Mike O'Connell: Okay, [00:20:00] so the, the fire itself. So you're placed in, you know, you're in the retort, door closed. We have a timer,

[00:20:05] Mike O'Connell: So right away, so think of somebody in a box, okay? We have a low fire. And so the 

[00:20:10] Pete Waggoner, Host: low fire- Is the box burnt up or is that nine? 

[00:20:11] Mike O'Connell: Oh, yeah. So the low fire comes down, and it's not designed to go to the floor of the retort, okay? 

[00:20:16] Pete Waggoner, Host: Okay. 

[00:20:17] Mike O'Connell: It stays up about 12 inches. Why? ' Cause that's, slows the process, it takes the box away, right?

[00:20:22] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah. '

[00:20:23] Mike O'Connell: Cause you don't want everything just to be hitting fast and out of control. You do it a little bit at a time. The body will start, and then it'll go to high fire. Now, the high fire goes straight down to the floor. It's designed to, to be honest, to say this with respect, but hit the torso- 

... 

[00:20:38] Mike O'Connell: And start that.

[00:20:39] Mike O'Connell: The torso is where things can really get going fast. That's where fat is, right? Grease or fat, that's where the temperatures get going. So during that process, like we talked about your campfire, blowing on it, okay? 

[00:20:51] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah. 

[00:20:51] Mike O'Connell: In the first part of the process, we have the throat air. It's called the throat air, always on.

[00:20:56] Mike O'Connell: That's like blowing on that afterburner- 

[00:20:58] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah ... 

[00:20:58] Mike O'Connell: you know, to really get it [00:21:00] efficient so it can make sure we burn off that carbon. That goes to a certain point. Our timer is set, for two hours and 30 minutes. The throat air might go off at two hours, ' cause now we don't have that fat. Now we wanna kick the heat up to make sure we finish everything off, that we complete it.

[00:21:15] Mike O'Connell: So the, that goes off, the throat air. Now there's what we call the hearth air, and let's say this is the floor. There's four of them on each side, little- Four inch by two inch openings all along the floor. That's another hearth there that blows air straight out. And that's so, that hearth there is blowing back, to make sure the carbon burns off.

[00:21:36] Mike O'Connell: This though is to blow, again, on that smoke, that fire to get it going on the bottom. 

[00:21:42] Pete Waggoner, Host: Okay. 

[00:21:42] Mike O'Connell: Because when you have something flat on the, the floor, sometimes that's protecting it from really getting cremated or burned. 

[00:21:50] Mike O'Connell: So when that throat air goes off, that hearth air kicks on.

[00:21:54] Mike O'Connell: Now you have increased heat and you're blowing on it to wrap things up So cremation, the timer goes off, and we [00:22:00] have to wait. If you didn't and you put that door up and you're like, "I'm gonna bring these out"- Oh, 

[00:22:03] Pete Waggoner, Host: no ... 

[00:22:04] Mike O'Connell: you're gonna, you're gonna- 

[00:22:05] Pete Waggoner, Host: You're 

[00:22:05] Mike O'Connell: gonna go with it ... 

[00:22:06] Pete Waggoner, Host: burn your 

[00:22:06] Mike O'Connell: face. Yeah. Yeah. No, I've learned that the hard way.

[00:22:09] Mike O'Connell: It's like, I smell hair." Oh. Because, you know, you're... And that's when, like COVID, you were trying to go. You 

[00:22:15] Pete Waggoner, Host: were trying to move it along. 

[00:22:16] Mike O'Connell: And primarily for your mental health and physical health. You know, we're not designed to just stay up for three days. You're trying to be efficient, so maybe you can even get a little rest.

[00:22:25] Mike O'Connell: Mm-hmm. So you're trying to that retained heat again, though. So the cremation process is done. We have to let it cool down for our safety. We get to a certain point And I'm gonna go on to temperatures now. Again, I m- briefly mentioned them, but we'll probably get down to 500 degrees retained heat there.

[00:22:42] Mike O'Connell: It's not blasting you away like it would with 1,200. 1,200 you wouldn't be able to, to withstand it. 

[00:22:49] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah. 

[00:22:49] Mike O'Connell: So the cremation process, when we do a first one, okay, we don't have the timer going, we don't have any guns going. We wanna slow this heat the right way, in the back by [00:23:00] the afterburner. ' Cause if you just put somebody in, you turned it on, you're gonna have smoke, ' cause the afterburner's not hot enough to burn off that carbon.

[00:23:06] Mike O'Connell: Just isn't. So we get to about 1,400 degrees, and we start everything. Throat air's on, low fire's on, hearth air's off. And now it's designed by itself to, to change those to that high gun, high fire, the throat air off, hearth air on. And so we bring it down to, you know, after the cremation, again, to that 500.

[00:23:24] Mike O'Connell: We have rakes. And so there's a metal, flat, almost like a plow if you will, but it's flat, and you rake them all out. Then we have another one with, um, steel bristles. That's a broom. 

[00:23:34] Mike O'Connell: And we'll do that. Now, if it's really cool, let's say we only have one, and we do it and we come back tonight or later.

[00:23:41] Mike O'Connell: There's not a rush on it. Service isn't for a week. Let it cool down completely. You could take a whisk broom and do it. 

[00:23:47] Pete Waggoner, Host: That sounds preferable to me. 

[00:23:49] Mike O'Connell: Yeah, but you certainly can't do it if it's 500 degrees, 'cause it'll just start melting it or start it on fire. 

[00:23:54] Pete Waggoner, Host: The broom. 

[00:23:55] Mike O'Connell: The broom. 

[00:23:56] Pete Waggoner, Host: Okay, so what happens though, like what's the matter, uh, that you're dealing with?

[00:23:59] Pete Waggoner, Host: Is it the [00:24:00] same when it's that 500 degrees and you're pulling it out or it's completely cooled? Or is it more... So is it, I don't wanna say liquidy, you know what I mean? Like, what's the material? 

[00:24:08] Mike O'Connell: None of that. So maybe halfway, three-quarters, probably three-quarters of the way through, we look in there and maybe the body shifted or maybe it's a bigger person.

[00:24:19] Mike O'Connell: And a bigger person, we'll put in backwards because we don't want this to catch.

[00:24:23] Mike O'Connell: So maybe two hours into it, you know, when the average person would be close to being done, we'll then put that rake in and pull them back under the fire.

[00:24:33] Mike O'Connell: Okay? That's- still a amount of matter, we'll call it- 

[00:24:36] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah ... 

[00:24:37] Mike O'Connell: uncremated matter. We'll put that under, let that finish. Let's say the process is done, okay? And within a couple minutes we raise the door three inches so you can look in there. They're gonna be glowing orange. They're glowing orange. It's still hot, right?

[00:24:51] Pete Waggoner, Host: It's a coal. 

[00:24:52] Mike O'Connell: It's a coal. There's no meat to the bone, if you will. No pun intended. But there's no fuel, okay? No fuel. So they're just hot, [00:25:00] really hot, and they need to cool down. So then you come back, and I kinda liken it to a campfire. When the campfire's done, what do you have there? White-ish- 

[00:25:09] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah, like at first it's, like, red coals.

[00:25:11] Mike O'Connell: Yep. 

[00:25:11] Pete Waggoner, Host: Uh, then they calm down. It's that white ash. 

[00:25:14] Mike O'Connell: Yep. That's how this is. So you're gonna have a piece that look like a racquetball, but it's, it's light. It's, uh, porous

[00:25:20] Mike O'Connell: But it's almost, it's like that angel candy. Do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah. Freeze-dried candy. 

[00:25:24] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:25:24] Mike O'Connell: It's like that.

[00:25:25] Pete Waggoner, Host: Okay. What do you do with that? 

[00:25:26] Mike O'Connell: So then we rake that. It goes down into a pan. Again, we wait, right?

[00:25:30] Mike O'Connell: And so then when it comes down, we put it into a processor. Before it goes in the processor, we'll put it on this pan, right? Sometimes it's to help cool it a little bit more. And remind me to tell you about a story I just had not too long ago. And while in that, we'll sift it for metal. Metal doesn't grind up.

[00:25:47] Pete Waggoner, Host: You've got, uh, a metal rod in your 

[00:25:49] Mike O'Connell: leg. 

[00:25:50] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah. 

[00:25:50] Mike O'Connell: I've been amazed at some of the stuff that comes out of a body. You're 

[00:25:53] Pete Waggoner, Host: like- 

[00:25:53] Mike O'Connell: Holy ... what 

[00:25:54] Pete Waggoner, Host: the heck? 

[00:25:54] Mike O'Connell: There's been, you know, stuff that's a foot long- Are you like- ... screws going both ways ... check 

[00:25:59] Pete Waggoner, Host: this [00:26:00] out? 

[00:26:00] Mike O'Connell: And I just feel bad for the person, how miserable that would've been in life.

[00:26:03] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah, looking at that. 

[00:26:04] Mike O'Connell: Yeah. So then the metal's taken out, 'cause that's foreign to the human body, and they're sent out to be recycled. Mm-hmm. They're not thrown in the garbage. 

[00:26:11] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah. 

[00:26:11] Mike O'Connell: And then what's left of the organic bones and what's left, they're put into a processor, and that processor just pulverizes them- 

[00:26:20] Pete Waggoner, Host: Got it

[00:26:21] Mike O'Connell: into something I would call the consistency of a sandy cat litter. 

[00:26:26] Pete Waggoner, Host: I say sand. Yeah. 

[00:26:27] Mike O'Connell: Yeah. 

[00:26:27] Pete Waggoner, Host: So a little thicker than like, not like a, a Gulf Coast sand, but- Yeah ... like a little thicker. 

[00:26:32] Mike O'Connell: And it's, I think of like Ash Wednesday, okay? 

[00:26:33] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah. 

[00:26:34] Mike O'Connell: You go and they, they put the soot on- ... your forehead. Soot is what? See if you remembered.

[00:26:39] Mike O'Connell: What's unburned- 

[00:26:40] Pete Waggoner, Host: Carbon ... 

[00:26:40] Mike O'Connell: carbon. It's carbon. And so, this doesn't have any of that. 

[00:26:43] Pete Waggoner, Host: That's gone? 

[00:26:44] Mike O'Connell: That's gone. So it pulverizes it into a white, gritty, sandy-like ... Some of it's more powdery. 

[00:26:52] Mike O'Connell: And so that's placed in a bag with that medallion again, right? 

[00:26:56] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah. 

[00:26:56] Mike O'Connell: And when a family comes, they get that, and they get that permit, [00:27:00] that transit permit, that's gotta stay with them.

[00:27:02] Mike O'Connell: We also make a certificate of cremation that goes along with who it was, when they died, when they were cremated, and that number. I got a call from the Baldwin Police Department probably , 25 years ago, and they said, "W- we went into a house that someone that died, and we need your help." I'm like, "What's up?"

[00:27:19] Mike O'Connell: " We found this," and it was an urn. " We don't know what to do with it." I'm like, "Okay. I don't know who it is. I don't know what their deal is." I was able to open it. It wasn't ours. 

[00:27:27] Pete Waggoner, Host: Oh, because the medallion was 

[00:27:29] Mike O'Connell: in there. The medallion. And I was able to track it, what company, and then who it was, and then return to sender.

[00:27:34] Mike O'Connell: So then before we just say, "Here's your cremated remains," we'll ask families, "Did you wanna scatter some? Did you wanna keep any?" So there's little token urn amounts. There is maybe a cup worth that they wanna scatter in the boundary waters or their lake- 

[00:27:48] Pete Waggoner, Host: Or 

[00:27:48] Mike O'Connell: wherever, yeah ... or golf course. And then there's sometimes a little pinch of more of the powdery stuff because then that can go in jewelry.

[00:27:55] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah, or the tattoos. 

[00:27:56] Mike O'Connell: Or the tattoos, yeah. 

[00:27:58] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah. 

[00:27:58] Mike O'Connell: Again, they process that carbon [00:28:00] and pull off the- 

[00:28:01] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah ... 

[00:28:01] Mike O'Connell: ink additive. 

[00:28:01] Pete Waggoner, Host: How much i- is an average body in terms of volume? 

[00:28:06] Mike O'Connell: Somebody said something to me I thought was pretty interesting. Can't refute it, can't say it's 100% on, but they said, "You're about the same weight as when you were born."

[00:28:14] Pete Waggoner, Host: Seriously? 

[00:28:15] Mike O'Connell: I'm like, damn, that's pretty good. I would say your standard s- bag of flour. 

[00:28:20] Pete Waggoner, Host: Just about. 

[00:28:21] Mike O'Connell: A little smaller than that. 

[00:28:22] Pete Waggoner, Host: Okay. 

[00:28:22] Mike O'Connell: I, you know, you've- 7 to 10. 7, 1 ... you've got those rectangle Kleenex boxes, right? 

[00:28:26] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah. 

[00:28:26] Mike O'Connell: Put two of them together. 

[00:28:27] Pete Waggoner, Host: Okay. 

[00:28:27] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah. Now- And then you fill it up. So it's what?

[00:28:30] Pete Waggoner, Host: About seven, eight pounds? 

[00:28:31] Mike O'Connell: Some people like you would have a lot more. '

[00:28:33] Pete Waggoner, Host: Cause I have so much muscle. '

[00:28:34] Mike O'Connell: Cause you have so much BS. 

[00:28:35] Pete Waggoner, Host: Oh, I thought it was muscle, but that's okay. 

[00:28:37] Mike O'Connell: Well, we'll let you think that. 

[00:28:38] Pete Waggoner, Host: Then, then that's double. 

[00:28:39] Mike O'Connell: Now- 85-year-old little lady or man 

[00:28:41] Mike O'Connell: 300 pound guy. Who's gonna cremate better?

[00:28:44] Pete Waggoner, Host: Well, the little ones. 

[00:28:45] Mike O'Connell: No. 

[00:28:46] Pete Waggoner, Host: The bigger guy. 

[00:28:46] Mike O'Connell: Why? '

[00:28:47] Pete Waggoner, Host: Cause of the fat will burn. 

[00:28:48] Mike O'Connell: They have fuel. 

[00:28:49] Pete Waggoner, Host: But the problem is it'd be too hot. 

[00:28:50] Mike O'Connell: Do them first. 

[00:28:51] Pete Waggoner, Host: If it's number four. Yeah, so okay. 

[00:28:53] Mike O'Connell: Okay. Okay, good point. So then you, you have to, you have to- You'd wanna put the 85-year-old in after a couple others ... 

[00:28:58] Pete Waggoner, Host: because it's hot.[00:29:00] 

[00:29:00] Mike O'Connell: Yes. 

[00:29:00] Pete Waggoner, Host: Okay. 

[00:29:00] Mike O'Connell: Because there's no fat to start with. 

[00:29:02] Pete Waggoner, Host: So you have to, like, build the schedule if you've got a situation during COVID where there's multiples you're dealing with. So you're working a puzzle. 

[00:29:08] Mike O'Connell: The crematory operators work in tandem. Um- 

[00:29:10] Pete Waggoner, Host: They say, "Hey, let's go here, here, and here." 

[00:29:12] Mike O'Connell: Yep. And it's, you know, sometimes, and it drives me crazy, we won't get authorization for cremation for 7 to 10 days.

[00:29:20] Mike O'Connell: How is that possible, right? ' Cause the doctor goes on vacation, and no other doctor's willing to step up to say I'll sign for Dr. Anderson." Be like, "I, I don't know his case. I don't want anything to do with it. I'm not signing the death certificate. I'm not getting involved." And it sits there. 

[00:29:34] Pete Waggoner, Host: Ugh. 

[00:29:34] Mike O'Connell: And we're screaming on this end.

[00:29:35] Mike O'Connell: Minnesota law requires a body to be embalmed if you're not cremated or buried within 72 hours. 

[00:29:41] Pete Waggoner, Host: I had a family member that was the situation during COVID. 

[00:29:43] Mike O'Connell: Did they embalm him? 

[00:29:44] Pete Waggoner, Host: They had to. 

[00:29:45] Mike O'Connell: I'm not gonna. 

[00:29:45] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah. 

[00:29:46] Mike O'Connell: I'm not gonna. Why does a family have to take on that expense?

[00:29:49] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah. 

[00:29:50] Mike O'Connell: And that's what they don't want. Honor their wish. Okay, so I get called on the carpet. I'm honoring the family's wish.

[00:29:55] Pete Waggoner, Host: I can't tell you how little I've known about this process. Some of it I [00:30:00] was guessing, but, like, temperatures and fat being an accelerant and not even considering that, and things like that.

[00:30:07] Pete Waggoner, Host: When you get to your operators, what type of education and things do you need to do, uh, with them? I know you said you don't need a certificate anyway. But from you from here, what do you say, "Okay, you have to have these skills in place in order for me to trust you"? 

[00:30:23] Mike O'Connell: So first we like a background in- 

[00:30:25] Pete Waggoner, Host: That's a good idea

[00:30:26] Mike O'Connell: emergency services. 

[00:30:27] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah. 

[00:30:27] Mike O'Connell: And so, both of our cremating operators are background in police, background in EMS, and firefighting. 

[00:30:34] Pete Waggoner, Host: Very stable, too, huh? 

[00:30:35] Mike O'Connell: They've seen dead bodies. 

[00:30:36] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah. And 

[00:30:37] Mike O'Connell: steady. If you haven't seen a dead body, you're gonna be freaked out at first. And I know them, worked with them. 

[00:30:41] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah.

[00:30:41] Mike O'Connell: Friends. And so they go through a course through the National Funeral Directors Association or what's called CANA. That's the Cremation Association of America. And so then they get, they go through their course, and then they get certified as a cremating operator. 

[00:30:55] Pete Waggoner, Host: What are the typical hours that you do this? Do you need to be here at all times [00:31:00] when... Someone needs to be on site when that's happening, I'd assume. You 

[00:31:02] Mike O'Connell: have to be close.

[00:31:03] Mike O'Connell: Close. The machine is is sound. It does it by itself. 

[00:31:06] Pete Waggoner, Host: So you could start one and leave? 

[00:31:08] Mike O'Connell: You could. It's not always recommended. 

[00:31:10] Pete Waggoner, Host: Right. 

[00:31:11] Mike O'Connell: You know. But the beauty of ours is one takes the days and the other, because of his schedule, will come in at night. 

[00:31:17] Mike O'Connell: So Greg comes in during the day.

[00:31:19] Mike O'Connell: And Ken comes in early in the morning to start. So when Ken comes in, all he's gotta do is process. And then Ken'll come back at night and start one, and he'll process in the morning. So, those guys are absolutely amazing. I don't care when it is, if it's 4th of July or Christmas, if I said, "Hey, we need one done, " " Okay.

[00:31:36] Mike O'Connell: I'll, okay, I'll be there." They're just incredible humans. How 

[00:31:37] Pete Waggoner, Host: much communication do you find yourself having with them? How busy are you with them? 

[00:31:41] Mike O'Connell: Well, the directors are always busy with them. 

[00:31:43] Pete Waggoner, Host: Constantly? 

[00:31:43] Mike O'Connell: Yeah. We have a communication in-house that will say, " Cremation paperwork completed and ready," so they know.

[00:31:50] Pete Waggoner, Host: That's, yeah. So do you use like a, not to get too deep into the weeds here, but do you have, like, a web-based app or how are you doing that? We have a 

[00:31:57] Mike O'Connell: funeral service software that helps.

[00:31:58] Pete Waggoner, Host: That does that, so you guys [00:32:00] can track the whole thing- Mm-hmm ... and the whole process. I would imagine, because to me, it could get really confusing really fast.

[00:32:06] Mike O'Connell: That's why you come back to the fundamentals. 

[00:32:09] Pete Waggoner, Host: Right. 

[00:32:09] Mike O'Connell: Document details. 

[00:32:11] Mike O'Connell: Cause there's been cases, look that up, cremating the wrong body. 

[00:32:14] Pete Waggoner, Host: I'm sure. 

[00:32:15] Mike O'Connell: You know, and I get it. It's like we look and go how can you... Mrs. Anderson's 85 and, you know, Mary is 65. Come on, people. How do you get that?

[00:32:24] Mike O'Connell: It's not like us. It's the bigger corporations that have 30 bodies in there, and you're told to cremate Mr. Talbot. You've never seen him. You don't- 

[00:32:32] Pete Waggoner, Host: You don't know who that is ... 

[00:32:33] Mike O'Connell: that's just one of 30. 

[00:32:34] Pete Waggoner, Host: Right. And 

[00:32:35] Mike O'Connell: so- And it- ... you're, you're depending on that person 

[00:32:37] Pete Waggoner, Host: Human variables. 

[00:32:38] Mike O'Connell: Yep. 

[00:32:38] Pete Waggoner, Host: And humans make mistakes.

[00:32:40] Mike O'Connell: Yep. 

[00:32:40] Pete Waggoner, Host: So, final thoughts here. Anything we missed that you wanna share about the process?

[00:32:44] Mike O'Connell: Our last podcast we talked about the whys. Super important, very personal decision to cremate. 

[00:32:49] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah. 

[00:32:50] Mike O'Connell: And then after you touched on it, one of them was tattoos, but that's one thing that cremation allows, too, is that you can put it into a tattoo.

[00:32:58] Mike O'Connell: No, it's not grainy. [00:33:00] People think, oh, that's horrible. No, it's an ink additive liquid that they process out What stone, um, is made of carbon? Diamond. 

[00:33:07] Pete Waggoner, Host: Oh, wow. 

[00:33:08] Mike O'Connell: They can process diamonds process. You know, it's a weeks process. You can pick clarity, you can pick color, and it's, it, we'll say it's lab done.

[00:33:16] Pete Waggoner, Host: So I know a lot of, uh, what do they call those, uh, when they do 

[00:33:19] Mike O'Connell: them across countries and they're, they're really hard on the people that make them, and they call them blood something. I don't remember what 

[00:33:25] Pete Waggoner, Host: it is. Yeah. 

[00:33:25] Mike O'Connell: Uh, but these are done in a lab in controlled situations and, uh, yeah, so you can make that out of them.

[00:33:30] Mike O'Connell: You can put them in a reef. You can shoot them to the moon. 

[00:33:33] Pete Waggoner, Host: There's a lot 

[00:33:33] Mike O'Connell: of- You can put them in fireworks. You can put them in shotgun shells. You can put them in a, a biodegradable turtle to put in the lake. 

[00:33:39] Pete Waggoner, Host: It's crazy. 

[00:33:40] Mike O'Connell: Yeah. 

[00:33:40] Pete Waggoner, Host: So there's a lot of opportunity, a lot of flexibility- 

... 

[00:33:43] Pete Waggoner, Host: And some, some very things you don't even think about.

[00:33:45] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah. And we've covered a lot of it- Yeah ... in, in this, which is super cool. 

[00:33:49] Mike O'Connell: We just basically covered all the, the details around what happens,

[00:33:53] Pete Waggoner, Host: It's professional. It's dignified. Yeah. It's detailed. Something I think everybody's always kind of wanted to hear [00:34:00] firsthand, you know?

[00:34:00] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah. But you never probably have. They're like, "So how does that work?" So that's really what this was, and it was super cool and and the detail is way beyond anything I considered. Maybe some of the listeners are like, "Nah, I figured it would be like this," but it was ... That was a, that was impressive. 

[00:34:16] Mike O'Connell: So- Well, let's see if people wanna know it, and it's all about education.

[00:34:19] Mike O'Connell: That's what all of our podcasts are about is letting people know the humanness of it and what happens behind the scenes. 

[00:34:25] Pete Waggoner, Host: And there's plenty that happens here, so thanks for this great podcast and all the podcasts we've done, 

[00:34:30] Speaker: Thanks for joining us for this episode of the Good Grief Podcast. We hope it gave you comfort, clarity, and a little peace of mind. To learn more about pre-planning, grief support, or upcoming seminars, visit us anytime at oconnellfuneralhomes.com. If this conversation helped you, share it with someone you love, and don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode.

[00:34:51] Speaker: Until next time, take care and be kind to yourself