Episode Description:

In this episode, Mike O’Connell joins Pete Waggoner for a deeply insightful conversation about monuments. 

They explore why headstones matter, how design choices tell a story, and what most families don’t know about the planning process. From costs to colors, Mike shares decades of wisdom to help you approach monument decisions with care and creativity.

Whether you’re preplanning or honoring a loved one, this episode will help you understand the value behind these lasting tributes—and how to avoid common mistakes.

Episode Highlights (Timestamps):

• [00:01:00] Why cemeteries are peaceful places for reflection
• [00:02:00] Partnering with Melgard Monument for creative, affordable designs
• [00:04:00] Understanding size limitations, layouts, and regulations
• [00:06:00] Granite types, color families, and weather durability
• [00:08:00] Rules about markers vs. upright monuments
• [00:10:00] One cost includes installation, engraving, delivery, and more
• [00:11:00] Companion vs. single monuments and modern trends
• [00:13:00] Clip art, symbols, etchings, and personalizing a monument
• [00:16:00] The permanence of engraving—and how to avoid errors
• [00:22:00] Polished finishes, contracts, and sign-offs
• [00:26:00] Flower vases, solar lights, and weather risks
• [00:28:00] Cleaning and caring for your monument (toilet bowl cleaner, really!)
• [00:30:00] Resetting and cemetery liability

Takeaways:

• Monument design is an extension of storytelling—your legacy in stone.
  
• One size doesn’t fit all. Style, size, and cemetery rules matter.
  
• Mistakes in engraving are permanent—always double-check before signing.
  
• Trust funds and prepaying can simplify everything for your family.
  
• Adding personal artwork, quotes, or symbols captures who someone really was.

Memorable Quotes

Mike O’Connell:



• “If it can be drawn, it can be blasted.”
  
• “You bought it. It’s yours. The care and cleaning of the monument belongs to the family.”
  
• “We’re not just marking a grave—we’re honoring a life.”
  
• “Monuments are rocks that tell stories. Literal, beautiful rocks.”

Transcript

Disclaimer:

Our episodes of the Good Grief Podcast include a transcript of the episode’s audio for people who are deaf or hard of hearing, if you’d like to scan the material, or have low bandwidth. The text is the output of AI-based transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record.

Pete Waggoner: [00:00:00] we're etched in stone today. We're talking about monuments. Things that we see a lot when we, we go to the cemetery and it's interesting.

Along with Michael O'Connell, I'm Pete Wagner. Mike, thanks for joining us here today. Thank you for having me. You bet. Wait a second. I'm having you Wait. We're having each other. We're having each other, so it's perfect. Okay. But it is, it's fascinating because like I look at various monuments and how things are, and some are different than others, and some you can tell are a little bit older.

There's some things that have changed along the way. And then if you go to a place like Fort Snelling, it's all the same, right? Mm-hmm. All those stones or whatever. So I, I think what I'm looking most forward to is getting into this a little bit deeper, and you have a, you have a really strong knowledge on this area.

I am sure. 

Mike O'Connell: Yeah. Have you ever walked around a cemetery, just like went and saw anybody or? Yeah. Normally. Okay. Yeah. Did you see any crows? 

Pete Waggoner: I don't know if I ever 

Mike O'Connell: noticed. Any zombies? No. None of those. Witches, [00:01:00] maybe Headless horsemen? Definitely not. Okay. Point being is that cemeteries in the communities are.

Some of the most peaceful, restful places in our communities and they're designed so we can go there and just reflect on life, reflect on our loved ones, because that's their legacy. Mm-hmm. That's how we heal, is by going towards the pain. And so cemeteries are to me just beautiful. They remember so much.

Pete Waggoner: So if I am going to pre-plan with Emma here at O'Connell Family Funeral Homes, and let's say I'm going to get to that level where I wanna do a monument of some sort, how does that work within your organization or your company here? And then do you predominantly use somebody? 

Mike O'Connell: Yeah. So for example, there's milgard, monument River Falls.

Everybody sees their twirling signs, right? And they go back in [00:02:00] 1888. I mean, that's, I can't even imagine. Like, I don't even know, five generations monuments were around. Yeah. But they go way back then and they serve western Wisconsin, the greater metro areas, and they'll go even farther than that. They're just great people.

Corey they're all great there. And so yeah, if a family comes in here, we have their materials we can help arrange and we can create the artwork. We can create the layout and it saves the family running around. So the people think then you're the middleman. We're not the middleman, it's the same price.

So what happens is, is we'll do that. There's no markup going on here. That's what you're saying? Yeah. No, no. You, we will do their design work because it's a connection with a family. That's our goal. Mm-hmm. Connection with the family, you know, that go all, be all thing. So a family will come in here, we'll do the artwork and we'll.

You can take that proof and you can pay mail guards direct. We have nothing to do with that anymore. Now, does that always work [00:03:00] that way? No, because somebody might say we have monies into that prearranged trust, like you talked about. Or, you know, mom and dad have an estate plan, and so I don't really wanna pay it outta my pocket, then I've gotta get later on reimbursed.

It'd be easier if you paid it. So sometimes we'll pay it too. But it's super easy. In fact, Corey at Mel Guards or Jeremy there, they'll often say, why don't you talk to Mike and o at the, or the O'Connell's, because they come up with some really crafty monuments. So they like your work. Yeah. Because just like everything else we do here, I don't think of it as, oh, let's do the same clip art that everybody uses.

Right, right. I want something cool, something funky and something different. 

Pete Waggoner: Yeah. So when it comes to like the engraving installation and, and those types of things.

Is that all help done at Melgar or, or do they outsource that stuff? 

Mike O'Connell: So let's say you're coming in, there's gonna be a lot of questions we're gonna ask to zone in on what you want, what you need, [00:04:00] what you can have. Okay? We'll get into some of that. But for some, let's say that you and your spouse or whatever, you're going to have two people cremated and buried on one grave.

Now there's limitations. You can't just have, you know, this huge monument, you're encroaching maybe on other ones. So you can only have a certain size and for some terminology, you have a base concrete base that sits flush with the ground. Then you have a base, then you have the tablet or the dye. And so those three pieces, but if you stretch it out, you can encroach on the grave next to you.

That's not allowed. Mm-hmm. So when people come here, we ask the right questions to find the right answers of is there a specific size and for size that also will correspond with price, right? I mean, yeah. That's just how it is now. Price wise, [00:05:00] it's and demand some of the prettiest granite is more expensive.

It's not more expensive 'cause it's prettier. It's more expensive because it's quarried less supply and demand. Now, why does the government pick what's called the Georgia Blue Gray for their veterans? Because it's cheap. Really? Yeah. But it looks good. When you put 'em all together like that. Yeah. When they're all together's, super cool.

Yeah. Yeah. So a lot of things go into it. Now, one caveat I always say too, is. People think oh my gosh, there's hundreds of choices. ' cause I was at Home Depot and man, the, the granite, there's different grades of granite. The granite at your home for your countertop is not the same as the ones that go in the cemetery.

They can't handle the sun. They can't handle the rain, can't handle the cold, can't handle the heat maybe some are more porous than others, so there's only, there's kind of like, I would say, three [00:06:00] different color schemes.

You've got your black and grays, you've got your brown and topes, you've got your blue greens and variations thereof, and reds now. When you think of it that way, there's probably only like 30, maybe 35 kind of colors that most people pick. So it's not like you go to Home Depot and you have 300 to pick from.

Mm-hmm. It's narrowed down for you. Keep in mind too, these are rocks. These are coming out of the earth. Yes. When you see those monuments, that's a rock that they chiseled down. I didn't even think of that right now. Look at the cemeteries and you go, holy man. Those were all rocks. Where'd they come from?

You know, you hit a rock in your backyard, that's maybe six inches, but these are three feet, five feet rocks. These are legit. Holy man. Yeah. And they're chiseled down. 

Pete Waggoner: Are there like certain sections for specific styles, like where, like even within the cemetery up the street here, do does, do you, do you have to kind of work [00:07:00] around things or does that not matter?

Is it more random? 

Mike O'Connell: No, some cemeteries are very rigid on their rules and it's because of one thing. Maintenance. I shouldn't say one thing, two things. Maintenance and, and price. And I say that because like you go to Fort Snelling, they're all regimented, but they have to have a lawnmower, take one strip so they can have all these different sizes to go around.

They need to make a quick strip through. And so it's maintenance, 

Pete Waggoner: so they have it set up so lawn mark can go. 

Mike O'Connell: Yep. 

Pete Waggoner: Yeah. 

Mike O'Connell: Now, some of your bigger cemeteries around Milwaukee, Chicago, that are corporate owned, we've talked about that in the past. 

Pete Waggoner: Yeah. 

Mike O'Connell: They will require markers. Now, let's talk terminology. A marker is one that can be fat, flat, or flush with the ground.

That's a marker. 

Pete Waggoner: We see a lot of those. 

Mike O'Connell: Yeah. Now if you have that pitched a little bit, so maybe four inches on the front, six on the back you have a, you have a bevel. Okay. Now you've seen some of the cemeteries that [00:08:00] almost look like a triangle. You know, they're kind of pitched in the front and then they're flat in the back.

It looks like a triangle. That's a slant. Mm-hmm. Now, upright monument is that piece we just talked about with a base and a and a tablet or dye, and they could be different shapes, whether they're scalloped or look like a. You know, an angel or a heart. But those are some of the terminologies. Now, those bigger cemeteries are gonna require flush flat markers, and a lot of 'em require bronze.

Why? Because they can install 'em, they can mow on 'em, and then they can charge $3,000 'cause they have you, if you will, over a bear a little bit because. You have to have what everybody else has in those sections of the cemetery, right? So you can't just pick and choose. You have to have that granite on, are you, excuse me, bronze on granite, and those can be like 3,500.

Pete Waggoner: Wow. Okay. So then that's kind of what we were talking about here, color finish and design elements. Correct. Is that, [00:09:00] yeah. Okay. Yep. And then how about in, in installation? Does a monument company do that? Yeah. Or is this cemetery?

Mike O'Connell: So that's, you know, people think, okay, what's the cost? You give 'em a cost.

But what's the engraving part? Same. Okay. What, how about the delivery? It's in there. How about the installation? It's in there. So that's one thing about mail guards with their transparency is they have one price. One price fits all With that. It's it. Yeah. It's. And they don't say how many letters?

Okay, Pete's got four, Michael's got, you know, seven. No, they don't do that. Sometimes they used, you know, companies used to in the back many years ago, but now it's just one template. They put it on there and they sandblast it. So inside of that, to answer your question, is the delivery installation fee. And so they have had teams.

You'll see 'em around the boom truck and they go around and, and call a cemetery. First of all, cemetery puts a flag where exactly where it goes. And then they'll go [00:10:00] dig in the foundation and then put the marker monument up. 

Pete Waggoner: So when it, it, you get your quote, it's gonna be X amount of dollars and they're not gonna come back and go, oh yeah, there's an installation charge, a delivery charge, or this charge?

No, it's, it is, as you said, it's one size fit all. 

Mike O'Connell: There, there's one a couple times that it's when the families changed something like if you say, okay. I got all this. I like it. I like the look. Can we have Wagner on the back? Yep. But they're gonna have a fee. 'cause now they have to go on the back, new template, all that and blast it.

So there's a nominal fee if you're adding 

Pete Waggoner: something that's beyond the Yes, the, the actual original quote. Like anything, that's what's 

Mike O'Connell: gonna happen. Yep. Okay. To answer specifically, you're gonna have the granite, the foundation, delivery, installation, engraving, and tax, all one. You're not gonna be nickel and dime like that.

Pete Waggoner: Can you talk about single companion or family monuments? How does that work? Like some, like when you see those like huge almost houses. Yeah. You know 

Mike O'Connell: those, so back in the day [00:11:00] people did that, right? Yeah. What they would do is they would buy like 10 plots. 10 graves, and they'd have one big family monument, and then they would have what we call foot stones to match each person, each grave.

Pete Waggoner: Yeah. Yeah, 

Mike O'Connell: just like funerals went from two day events, three day events to one day, one hour prior and, and consolidated 'em. That's what families are doing now. So they're just saying, we don't need a monument and a foot stone. We just need one. And so that's changed. And so you look at if, if you have one grave for two people, you're gonna have a marker or a monument that's called a companion.

'cause you're gonna have two people on it. If you only need one person, it's a single, and then some people still do have, you know, O'Connell and then they have separate graves for each one. 

Pete Waggoner: Mm-hmm. 

Mike O'Connell: You can only have one upright monument per grave space. At any cemetery, and that's because of lawn mowing.

Again, 

Pete Waggoner: space, 

Mike O'Connell: they [00:12:00] can't be, you know, zigzagging and playing Plinko trying to go around. I mean, yeah, you'll have 

Pete Waggoner: weeds in two seconds. Yeah. Right. 'cause you can get to what you need to colors and finish of granites. Like what appeals to whom? 

Mike O'Connell: When you, you know, the old days would be they were all that mahogany look.

Yeah. With grays. 

Pete Waggoner: Yeah. 

Mike O'Connell: Then you got some blacks that came in and. And so now you'll see some and, and that's again why Ridge likes when we do it is you'll see some that are butterfly blue that have blue specks and green specks. Really cool. Or there's green pearl, blue pearl that have actual specks that'll catch your eye.

And it's like when the sun hits it, they're glistening. So again, you have those, those color schemes of grays, blacks, browns, and blues, greens, and reds. And again, like the 35 or how many, there are different ones. You could even walk their premise and see those colors. 'cause if somebody's unsure of what it looks [00:13:00] like, I kind of want 'em to see it and versus getting there and go, oh, I don't know if I like this.

Like on flat ones, I'm not a big fan of darker ones because when you get grass and you get dust on it, it's harder to see. Mm-hmm. But if you have lighter ones it kind of pops more. 

Pete Waggoner: How about symbols or designs to reflect your loved one's life? What can that look like? 

Mike O'Connell: If you go to the old parts of the cemetery, they all kinda look the same, don't they?

They all have a cross on 'em. 

Pete Waggoner: Yeah. 

Mike O'Connell: They all have a praying hands on 'em. And I'm not saying anything against those, but. Every one of us is different, and every one of us has a story to tell. And you can capture that. You could have a microphone and a hockey stick combined for yours. I could have a firefighting or a paramedic or a casket on mine.

Everybody's got a different look, right? And so what we're just trying to do is capture it's clip art. I mean, there's volumes of book that have clip art. So if you said, I want a cardinal, there could be a hundred different cardinals on a branch, two cardinals saying, [00:14:00] you name it. 

Pete Waggoner: Right? 

Mike O'Connell: And so the clip art kind of goes into their personality and what they stood for in life.

A lot of 'em have some religious connotation to it, some cemeteries still to this day, like Catholic cemeteries. Will have a requirement that it has to have a cross or a crucifix on it somewhere. 

Pete Waggoner: Right. 

Mike O'Connell: Some old time Catholic cemeteries will require that. 

Pete Waggoner: And then when, when you do get into the the, the, the photos, do you see much of that in and the ceramic portraits?

Mike O'Connell: Yeah. There's quotes 

Pete Waggoner: and verses, things like that. 

Mike O'Connell: There's really, you know, you can capture a photo a couple different ways. When you see what looks like a real lifelike drawing of a picture. Yeah, that's called etching. So engraving, they do a V cut in the stone and people think that they paint them, but what's jumping out is the shadow.

It's the contrast of stone. So when you look at it, the shiny part, but if you flip it over, it looks dull. [00:15:00] That's what you're seeing on engraving is that contrast that jumps out at you, and so they do a V cut that could go a quarter, an eighth of an inch into the stone. Now etching is just scratching the surface on that.

Jet Black Monument. And they used to be hand done. I mean, artists we talked on podcast before with Carlin, you know, that would draw for tattoos. This is an artist that sits there and they s etch it and it takes some hours. Now there's computer aid, you know, a i, all that stuff. Yeah. That can do it. And so that's changed their industry a little bit, but.

So the other way of putting a photo on there is called sublimated ceramic. And the, the ceramic as the, as the colors embedded in them, 

Pete Waggoner: like a t-shirt, they do a dye sub where there's no, there's no like, silk screening or anything like that. Yeah. It's not a sticker 

Mike O'Connell: that's gonna rub off. Same concept in the ceramic.

And people say how long will that [00:16:00] last? I said, I've seen 'em that have done 30 years ago, and they're still standing strong. 

Pete Waggoner: Allegedly forever. 

Mike O'Connell: Yeah. So those are great ways of capturing photos. And sometimes you have to just sit back and I don't wanna say catch yourself, but if you have, you know, one person die, do, and you etch them or you have a photo, what happens when the other person dies?

Do they have the photo when they die? Or do they say, I want to go back. 

Pete Waggoner: So you got one who may have died 20 years before the other 

Mike O'Connell: Yeah. 

Pete Waggoner: And it's not matching, 

Mike O'Connell: right? Hmm. 

Pete Waggoner: So what do you do? Do you put 'em both on there from 20 years ago? Right. And then you see 

Mike O'Connell: a lot of, you see more etchings for younger people.

Right. Okay. When you see a spouse that died in their thirties, there might be that, you know, draw to be like, you want to capture his essence, you want to have their photo. But sometimes they remarry. I know. And so then they're like, oh my gosh, now what? 'cause I've got a husband and two kids with this [00:17:00] husband.

So emotions can play a role in it. And so it's just, it's being educated and trying to make the best decision that you can. 

Pete Waggoner: And you guys help with that? Absolutely. And then you basically go to Melgar family and say, here's what we got here for this one. 

Mike O'Connell: We can do a hard, you know, hard copy and obviously with computers and emails and technology.

That way we can work electronically as well. 

Pete Waggoner: I suppose there's all sorts of different concepts on quotes versus in personal sayings. 

Mike O'Connell: Yeah, so you can have on the bottom loving parents of, you know, Phil, Mary, and Tom. You can have. The Lord is my shepherd. Dot dot. Mm-hmm. You can have a quote. You know, my dad always joked around and said, I'm gonna put a quote on the bo bottom of my monument to say, I told you I was sick.

So yeah. Again, that's trying to capture the personality and the essence of the person. 

Pete Waggoner: Okay. When you do that, we've talked cost a little bit where we mentioned that really, pretty much [00:18:00] everything's contained on the quote. Mm-hmm. Unless you're adding onto it, which, which we're aware of. But what is roughly the total cost and does it include?

It does include, we mentioned all of them. One cost. I mean, I suppose that varies, right? It's probably all over the place you mentioned, depending upon size and what you're doing. 

Mike O'Connell: Sure. I guess to answer your question, if a person got a single. Marker, like a two foot by one foot and now, so then that's the slippery slope is does the cemetery require that it's placed in concrete?

If it does, that adds money. If it doesn't, then that saves probably 250 to 350 depending on, so you could say it goes from 500 to seven 50, and if it's a companion, maybe a thousand or 1100. A slant could be around 1600 to start and a monument that that piece we talked about with the base and the top piece.

That could go from anywhere depending on the granite from [00:19:00] 25 to 3,500 or more because of the size, but a standard size. Yeah. Those 

Pete Waggoner: based off what I see and what I've observed. I, I don't think that's bad at all, to be honest. When you, I think with 

Mike O'Connell: what it does, that's incredible value. When you look at some of those old monuments that are probably 10 to 12 inches thick by maybe four feet left to right by four feet high, those would probably be around 15,000 and whereas 50 years ago, people wanted to mark their ancestry with a big monument, and you've seen some that are 20 feet tall. Holy man. 

Pete Waggoner: Mm-hmm. 

Mike O'Connell: That would be astronomical. We're seeing that people don't see the value in that as much anymore. We don't see the people that say, I want a family stone to get individual ones.

Maybe five to 10% maybe. I think the family one's kind of cool. Oh, they are, but at what cost? 

Pete Waggoner: [00:20:00] Right. 

Mike O'Connell: And the old question we always ask here is, is there value in what you're paying for? 

Pete Waggoner: And getting into the art part of things, obviously you mentioned there's a difference between granite colors and finishes.

We know that. 

Mike O'Connell: Yeah. And it's one important part too, is. Some people will ask about I, yeah, I just want a marble one. People think marble, but that's granite marble. You'll see white marble, you'll see some that are white marble. Those are more porous, and they are gonna show dirt. And with the dirt, then it turns into the lichen, and, and that's when you see the, you know, the discoloration and the like, and grow on 'em and strongly urge 

Pete Waggoner: against that.

Right? And then you can quote you, I said, I know you mentioned you could come back and say, Hey, I wanna write it on the back. So you can do two sides of the monument too, correct? In terms of quotes or anything that you're doing there. Yeah. 

Mike O'Connell: You're gonna want to ask the questions that say, have you thought of this?

Did you want a picture? Do you want anything On the other side? It may be, you know, if we ask the right [00:21:00] questions, we'll say, okay, Pete, your grandpa was, was a veteran. Would you like the bronze plaque that's free from the government to be attached to the back? People will always see that he was a veteran.

I'd be 

Pete Waggoner: like, yeah, a hundred percent 

Mike O'Connell: right. You know, that's the no brainer. So they're attached, they're bolted to the monuments. They're not glued, they're bolted to 'em. So with the right questions, you know, like you've said people come in here and they don't know what they're, what they're looking for.

It's the job of the designer to ask the right questions to make sure that everything, you know, every stone was turned and every tire kicked. 

Pete Waggoner: How about digital proofs or sketches? As we get to the final approval? Do you require require a sign off process on that? 

Mike O'Connell: Yeah, so again, that's one thing that the Monument company loves us because we filter for 'em.

Pete Waggoner: Yeah. 

Mike O'Connell: We go back and forth and create the, you know, help them decide on their proofs. So mall guards isn't doing 10 of 'em. And so then when the, you know, you get to the point where you're like, I'm happy with that. I like that. Let's do it. [00:22:00] Okay. Then we'll say, now Mel Guards is gonna send you a contract.

You're gonna sign that contract and it outlines everything we talked about from, you know, we, what we didn't talk about is those monuments can be polished all around. So you say there's a polish too, which means the front and the back are polished. A polished three stone means the front and the back. And the top.

A polished five you can imagine. Front, back, top sides. So all of that adds a little bit more. And so it all on that contract, we'll all put all that in there. So there's no hidden things, there's no like, wait a second, that's the wrong color. And then you're gonna see it on there, the sketch on there again, and then you're gonna sign it and you're gonna pay 'em.

Pete Waggoner: How about revisions after engraving. So maybe someone has signed off on their final revision, right? And they go, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait. Can you catch it? And how do you do that? 

Mike O'Connell: Okay. If it's caught before, yes. 

Pete Waggoner: But once they engrave, it's [00:23:00] like you signed off, you prove, sorry. 

Mike O'Connell: There comes the old saying, set in stone.

Whoa. That's where it comes from. So there has been mistakes by families that gave the wrong information. It's happened. And so most of the time to fix it, you need a new monument. That's the sad thing about it. They can take that monument and shave it down, but they're gonna tell you, you know, at the price you're gonna pay for that.

I just think you should get a new monument. And so it's kind of frustrating for that other, sometimes like on a chip. 

Pete Waggoner: Yeah. 

Mike O'Connell: I've seen some great artistry that took part of that granite, ground it up, put it with the resin, put it on, and then polished it off. And I'll be damned if it didn't look great, but you can't, you could fill in those numbers.

Let's say it was 1927 and it, it had 26. You can fill that in, but there's always gonna be that silhouette [00:24:00] shadow behind it. You 

Pete Waggoner: know, the moral of the story is you just better be pretty darn sure of what you're signing off on. And, and that's it. And final, right? I mean that's what 

Mike O'Connell: Absolutely. 

Pete Waggoner: Can we incorporate custom artwork, signatures, designs, and handwriting?

Even 

Mike O'Connell: I have a simple saying, if it can be drawn, it can be blasted. 

Pete Waggoner: Wow. 

Mike O'Connell: Okay. How for etchings to say, like you say signatures, some people love to see a signature that's like their calling card, right? Their go-to. Yeah. So it can be that, it can be a lot of things and. And you're, you're seeing now the new technology with with the internet and all that is a QR code.

Pete Waggoner: Yeah. 

Mike O'Connell: They can put a QR code on a monument that anybody that comes up can scan it with their phone and they come right to our website and they see the open. Are you seen that? Yeah. 

Pete Waggoner: Can't you? Have you ever thought, 

Mike O'Connell: no. 

Pete Waggoner: You. So when QR codes first came out, I'm convinced they were like fading away. Yeah. And then COVID came and it's like, oh, we can't touch the menus.

So now the QR codes, I, I thought 

Mike O'Connell: they were gone and [00:25:00] now they've been very Right. 

Pete Waggoner: Resurgence. They, they're just now everybody knows how to use 'em. Mm-hmm. Do you have any limits on numbers of characters within design elements? 

Mike O'Connell: No. 

Pete Waggoner: Okay. 

Mike O'Connell: Sometimes the Monument company will say, Pete, you know, I know you want all this, this is really busy.

You are gonna get lost in this a little bit. We'll do it if you want, but I just want you to think about it before we be careful. Yeah. 'cause it's too busy. 

Pete Waggoner: We're writing a book here, right? Yep. What options exist for VAEs solar lights or flower holders? 

Mike O'Connell: Have you ever driven past the cemetery night?

Pete Waggoner: Yeah. 

Mike O'Connell: You see how the lights, 

Pete Waggoner: yeah. 

Mike O'Connell: Those are solar lights. You know, they used to have I can't think of the name. Eternal Flames. Yeah. That was the name. Oh yeah. And they sold those for four or $500 and you know, people were eating 'em up, putting 'em on the monument. Sadly some were stolen. Mm-hmm. But now you're seeing people go to the hardware store, home Depot, and get a simple solar light [00:26:00] charges during the day.

And then at night there's a little light. It's kinda like the, the motel seven, the light's always on. Right, right. And it just, I think for families, it lets 'em know that they're being watched and they're not alone. You know, it's a, it's a sentimental thing when they add that vase is, on the other hand are kind, tricky.

If you really wanted to match the granite, you're gonna have a, a smaller base, but it's gotta have that drain hole. 

Pete Waggoner: Yeah. 

Mike O'Connell: Because if, if not. It's gonna crack. Water's gonna get in there and it's gonna crack when it freezes. Oh yeah. Now the problem with VAEs is if you can imagine they're going to dry out quickly.

'cause they're not like 10 inches, they're more or less like four. So that's why you see a, if you see vases, a lot of times the vast majority are gonna be artificial flowers 

Pete Waggoner: because you have to deal with the water. 

Mike O'Connell: Yep. Gotcha. Won't crack, won't do anything. And so some even have, like some of those bronze plaques that they sell, [00:27:00] they're popups.

So you push down on 'em and you flip the thing up, put it upside down and put it in. But a lot of times they get dirt in 'em and then they don't, you know, that flip thing doesn't work. And so it's kind of wonky 

Pete Waggoner: who's handleable who handles or is responsible for cleaning and upkeep once this is installed?

That's something I'd love to hear. 

Mike O'Connell: That's a great question because we've had phone calls. That we've directed to the monument company because they're ultimately the ones that can answer it best, but a monument company puts it in the ground. Okay. After that, they're done. It's the family's job. We had somebody called last week and said the stone looks like hell, whose job is to clean it?

I'm sorry. It's yours. Oh, they can't. They can't. They can't monitor that. I mean, think of. Going to the cemetery here with 3000 monuments.

No, no, no. It's have to clean. It's yours. It's yours. You bought it. It's yours. 

Pete Waggoner: Okay. So then now these people learn that they have to clean the monument. What methods are safe for cleaning the [00:28:00] granite or bronze?

You know 

Mike O'Connell: what they taught me in the beginning toilet pole cleaner. 

Pete Waggoner: Seriously? 

Mike O'Connell: Yeah. 'cause it's not corrosive. It'll go on and start eating that lichen a little bit. Right. And then you take a brush and brush it up. That probably shines it up really nice. Now I've done 'em for families. They've said, could you do it?

Sure. So I've gone out, done that. And then I will bring a little bleach, not much. Now you could spray it on a monument, but that shine, it's not gonna penetrate, but I'll spray sometimes the, the engraved letters. Because now the, the polish was taken off and now you have that stone that's, that's showing.

Mm-hmm. And I wanna lighten it a little bit and kill all that stuff in there. 'cause I'll brush it with a steel brush or a brass brush and the grooves and then just a little a bleach on the inside of it. It's pretty nice of you to do that. And they'll clean up a little bit. Yeah. 

Pete Waggoner: That's really nice of you to do that.

And then we kind of mentioned engraving later for a spouse. Do. Would someone [00:29:00] come through you then and say, Hey, we gotta add this to this one, or 

Mike O'Connell: how does that work? That's a great question. So first of all, it's for a companion, right? Because they got a stone for one parent. Now the second parent dies usually the vast majority of times, unless there's a sale, the Monument company can't afford to say it's covered.

Mm-hmm. A lot of people I've, I've heard it hundreds of times. It's covered. I'm not sure if it no, they said it was okay, let's go back and look at that contract then. And it wasn't, because if you think of it from a business standpoint, you sold a monument 30 years ago. 

Pete Waggoner: No way. 

Mike O'Connell: Yeah. You have to send somebody with a cellar, sand blaster, drive there with gas, the machinery, put a template on and blast those dates in.

Can't do it for free. Because that would just be economically difficult for you. So they have a fee to come do it. So what we'll do is we'll order it for, from the Monument company, and then they'll just bill us and we'll pay it for the family at a, so it's like an updated 

Pete Waggoner: [00:30:00] thing for them? Yeah. 

Mike O'Connell: We, we call it a it's not a cash advance, it's just, yeah.

It's, we pay it for them and makes it convenient. Do you keep your design files on file? They do. 

Pete Waggoner: They do. Melgar quality? Yep. Okay. Yep. So there's always a reference back. And then how about resetting or leveling? 

Mike O'Connell: That's a tricky one. Ground moves. Right? We just talked about it, that the Monument company's not set up to go back and maintain monuments.

Cemeteries now are finding they're liable if something happens, and there has been some very tragic. Endings with monuments falling on people. And so then as you can imagine, something happens that traumatic, what are they gonna do? They're gonna look for any pockets. And so whether that cemetery was owned by a church or a village, you know, a city cemetery, they're gonna go for wrongful death suits, they're gonna go for injury suffering, all that stuff.

So some cemeteries will be a little more aggressive and contact the monument [00:31:00] company. Try to use some of their, I say frozen funds because when somebody buys a grave, part of that money has to go into perpetual care. Right. They can't just put it in their coffer and use it all up. It's gotta be there as a safety net so they can tap into some of that and fix some of those old ones that are wonky and they're leaning about 45%, you know, so they can straighten 'em out.

Pete Waggoner: Wow, okay. So it's a huge liability though. I would, that would be scary. Yeah. That would be something where if you have that, the. That would be a, you can clean it, but don't try to move it. Worst case scenarios happen. I'll just leave it at that. Oh, wow. That's, that's incredible. Anything else on this topic you wanna cover before we wrap up?

This addition of good 

Mike O'Connell: grief? We love it. You can prepay it and just have the money set aside so it's covered. If somebody, some people don't like to see their name on a stone. I know. Die. Yeah. It's creepy for some, and so I just say put the money aside into a trust. So you pay today and you'll never have to pay more [00:32:00] because of accrues and it's there for you when, when, when you pass away.

But we love doing it. We love to be creative. Think of something different, cat. Sure. Their essence. And so again, why do we do it? Because we're connecting with the family and we're that one stop, you know, for everything they need. 

Pete Waggoner: That's awesome. Etched in stone, the art of remembering