The Cost of Kindness: How Scammers Exploit Our Elders

how to protect seniors from scams

Episode Description


In this episode of The Good Grief Podcast, hosts Pete Waggoner and Michael O’Connell sit down with St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson to talk about a growing threat facing older adults: scams that prey on kindness, trust, and fear.


From grandparent scams and fake tech support calls to government impersonators and gift card fraud, Sheriff Knutson shares real-world examples from his thirty years in law enforcement. The conversation explores why these crimes are so hard to track, why many victims never report them, and how families can take practical steps to protect their loved ones.


This episode is about awareness, education, and breaking the silence around scams so fewer families are harmed.


Episode Highlights (Timestamps)


  • [00:00:00] Why this episode matters, protecting elders beyond funeral care

  • [00:02:00] The scope of the problem, billions lost to scams targeting adults sixty plus

  • [00:05:00] How scams have changed with technology and faceless perpetrators

  • [00:07:00] Why many elderly victims do not report scams

  • [00:10:00] The grandparent scam explained step by step

  • [00:14:30] Tech support and computer access scams

  • [00:18:30] Government impersonation scams, IRS, sheriff, and jury duty calls

  • [00:22:00] Gift card scams and how criminals drain money instantly

  • [00:27:00] Why scammers target kindness and vulnerability

  • [00:30:00] Education as the strongest defense

  • [00:36:00] Reporting scams through IC3 and when fast action helps

  • [00:41:00] Trust but verify, how to fact-check suspicious calls

  • [00:49:00] AI, voice cloning, and what the future of scams may look like


  • [00:53:00] Final advice for families and caregivers


Takeaways


  • Scams targeting older adults are widespread, sophisticated, and often underreported

  • Many victims stay silent due to shame or fear of losing independence

  • Scammers commonly impersonate grandchildren, government agencies, or tech support

  • No legitimate authority will demand payment through gift cards, wiring money, or urgent phone calls

  • Education and open family conversations are the most effective tools for prevention

  • Verifying information before acting can stop most scams

  • Reporting scams quickly can sometimes prevent further loss and help stop criminal operations


Memorable Quotes



  • “You have a faceless perpetrator and a faceless victim. There is no human connection anymore.”

  • “Many elderly victims don’t report scams because they’re afraid of losing their independence.”

  • “If someone calls demanding money, especially gift cards, it is a scam.”

  • “Trust, but verify. That advice matters more now than ever.”

  • “Knowledge, knowledge, knowledge. That’s how we protect people.”

  • “Everybody listening to this knows someone who’s been scammed. They just may not know it yet.”


Transcript


Disclaimer:


Our episodes of the Good Grief Podcast include a transcript of the episode’s audio for people who are deaf or hard of hearing, if you’d like to scan the material, or have low bandwidth. The text is the output of AI-based transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record.



[00:00:00] Pete Waggoner, Host: Hello everybody. This podcast is the Cost of Kindness, how Scammers Exploit Our Elders. Mike, this is really gonna be interesting. 

[00:00:08] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: I figured, yeah. It doesn't have to do with funerals or prearranging or anything like that, but it does affect our elderly and we are an advocate for them.

[00:00:15] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: So seeing all that stuff happen, hearing stories, I just felt this was a great podcast., And to have our guest, our prestigious guest, well, you can't beat that. 

[00:00:24] Pete Waggoner, Host: No you can't. And we're joined by St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. And you have sheriff a lot, uh, to discuss here, which I'm looking forward to.


[00:00:33] Pete Waggoner, Host: And I think what the best part is we're gonna come up with some solutions toward the end of this and what people can do to protect themselves. And before that, what to do after something happens. So thanks for joining us. 

[00:00:44] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Thank you for having me. 

[00:00:45] Pete Waggoner, Host: We know it's incredibly sick to take advantage of our elderly members of the community, and anyone who's can see firsthand how our elderly are targeted is of course, St.

[00:00:55] Pete Waggoner, Host: Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. He's seen some wild the sky scams. And we are [00:01:00] going to get into what these scams are, and you get a little bit deeper. The FTCs Consumer Sentinel Network received about 2.6 million. Reports, which are complaints of consumer fraud, of which a significant share are, quote, imposter scams.

[00:01:16] Pete Waggoner, Host: That's identity theft and other financial fraud types. According to the FBI's Internet Crime Complaint Center and other sources, scams affecting adults, 60 plus caused over 3.4 billion. That's with a b in losses in 2023. Scott, that could be a tip of the iceberg, correct. 

[00:01:35] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : That I truly believe is a tip of the iceberg.

[00:01:37] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : And again Pete, thank you very much for having me here I've been with the Sheriff's office for about 30 years and, uh, she's gonna be finishing up my 30th year here this fall. In my time from when I first started it was a different type of criminal and a different type of crime. Most of the property crimes were


[00:01:53] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : very tangible. now with the internet and these online scams the criminal has become [00:02:00] smarter. The criminal has become more elusive because of their location and how far away they are. As well as the time it takes to electronically create this investigation. This has been a curve ball for our profession and truly for society and, and the victims.

[00:02:14] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : It's really difficult as we maneuver through some of the challenges that, that we're faced with. And the cost of this to the community is, is tremendous. So the tip of the iceberg, I believe you have that correct. 

[00:02:25] Pete Waggoner, Host: So is it fair to say that the older type of crimes left behind things that you could tangibly put your hands on and say, 

[00:02:34] Pete Waggoner, Host: This is leading down this path to maybe this person or group.

[00:02:37] Pete Waggoner, Host: Now this is a digital footprint, which. They're not dumb, right? They could probably disguise a lot of things they're doing. It has to make it a lot harder for you as a group to be able to really get down that rabbit hole, and it sounds like in a fast amount of time, because it's almost faster than what the old crime was.

[00:02:55] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Yeah. You hit the nail on the head of, an actual footprint defined [00:03:00] forensically and digitally. There is also a footprint, but one of the things that has changed and made it so much more difficult is distance. These perpetrators can be from other states, different parts of the country, and different parts of the world.

[00:03:14] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : So where many years ago you could drive to interview your suspect or find evidence, right? Mm-hmm. We can't do that anymore. Yeah. It may not even be drivable. We may not have people near them that, that can locate those items. Okay. And what is stolen can easily be hidden, distributed spent, , because it's all money or bitcoin something through the computer system.

[00:03:34] Pete Waggoner, Host: It's almost intangible now. 

[00:03:36] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: Correct. That's amazing. When you think of it like you're saying 30 years ago when you started, it might have been the neighbor down the road or a relative or someone they knew most likely, right. That swindled some money from him. Now you have a faceless perp. 

[00:03:49] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : You have a faceless perp.

[00:03:51] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: You don't know where they're at. You have a faceless perp, and yet you're told to go get 'em. 

[00:03:54] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Yes. 

[00:03:54] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: That's like, no pun intended, but you're handcuffed. Very good. Yes. Well done. I practiced that one.

[00:03:59] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : A, faceless [00:04:00] purp. And from the purpose perspective, a faceless victim, there's absolutely no connection to robbing a store stealing outta somebody's even their mailbox.

[00:04:07] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Now it's from another country and there is no human connection to it. It's a game to many of these individuals. 

[00:04:13] Pete Waggoner, Host: And then it became, you've become justifiable to them too. 

[00:04:16] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Yes. 

[00:04:16] Pete Waggoner, Host: They're, you know, I, I am, I'm justified to this or I'm entitled to this now. It kind of feels that way. 

[00:04:22] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Yeah. I, you know, when you get into other, areas of the country, other parts of the world America is a wealthy, very we are well off over the big bad wolf, the big bad wolf from, you know, compared to other areas of the world.

[00:04:35] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : And for those areas we are easy pickings for. And that's 

[00:04:38] Pete Waggoner, Host: what I meant by the entitlement kind of that little bit. And that's a real thing for people to know. Yes. 

[00:04:43] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: When I did. Some research into this. Before we sat down today, I, I was surprised that many scams are never reported to the police or the federal agencies.


[00:04:52] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: And it said that, one survey was suggested that the percentage of fraud victims who report to law enforcements often below [00:05:00] 20%, which means 80% aren't even calling you. They're, I don't understand that. Why would somebody not want to call you and say, Hey, I mean, 'cause we're not talking. 10 bucks was taken outta your pocket.

[00:05:10] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: We're talking thousands, tens of thousands, sometimes hundreds of thousands. That might be their whole life saving. Could be their whole retirement, it could be their whole inheritance. So I don't understand why somebody wouldn't wanna step forward. 

[00:05:21] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : There are those instances and we're seeing those more and more, , where somebody's the victim of a crime and, on the front end, some may think.

[00:05:28] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Well, they, they don't think anything can be recovered, so they don't report it. But sometimes it goes deeper than that. And sometimes there's, you know, as we look at some individuals and the victims of some of these crimes, some of the elderly they don't report it out of fear of really announcing that I was the victim and having, for instance, a family member or somebody that's in charge of, you know, hoping that they're getting through and paying their bills knowing that now they're a victim and the belief that they can no longer care for themselves.

[00:05:56] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : So if somebody's living independently and become a victim of a [00:06:00] crime of a scam where they turn over willingly because they're being duped, hundreds of thousands of dollars, in some cases, family members may believe that they are vulnerable and can no longer care for themselves. Therefore we need to either take control of all their finances or relocate them to maybe we, maybe an, an assisted living place.


[00:06:17] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : So there are a number of elderly victims that will not report it for fear of losing their independence losing the ability to manage their own money, and they just don't call us. That's fascinating. 

[00:06:29] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: I never thought of that. And when I looked at that number, I'm thinking, why wouldn't anybody not? But I completely get it.

[00:06:35] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: Having two elderly parents that I did and, and their independence was huge to them. Dad didn't want to go in a nursing home and he wanted to be home. So did mom. And so that was her identity, that's her independence. And I could see somebody wanting to safeguard that at all cost because of the shame, shame when it's driving the boat, nothing good comes out of that.

[00:06:53] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: So that's fascinating that you say that. 

[00:06:55] Pete Waggoner, Host: It's really interesting because people that. Perpetrate, these crimes are professional. It's their [00:07:00] job, it's what they do. So of course they're gonna, but I think what I'm hearing if this is correct is there's a, there's just a, a lot of different emotions that come into play here.

[00:07:07] Pete Waggoner, Host: There's the shame element, like, how could I allow this to happen? Yes. Or in layman's, or how to be so stupid, let's say to now I'm gonna have some family consequences, which could lead all the way to assisted living. And then what about the component of, you know, someone coming back after you, 'cause you said something.

[00:07:24] Pete Waggoner, Host: Does that fit in there too? 

[00:07:25] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : , Sometimes it does. We, we see that very rarely, but, but there is the, hey, don't tell anybody. Would that


[00:07:30] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: be extortion for blackmail? Kind of where I was? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. 

[00:07:34] Pete Waggoner, Host: Does that exist in this or because they're faceless perpetrators you don't, they don't, they just move on their necks.

[00:07:39] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : You know, there's some threat. We don't see that often because many times that the kindness and the goodness and that, that gets us a lot farther and help me out, you know, talk about some of these other scams where they, where they prey on the goodness of people. Right. , There are, there are still some threats, but we don't get those all that often.

[00:07:55] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Okay. Because that will more than likely I would imagine from the suspect [00:08:00] side for sure get a call to us. Right. If somebody's threatened, you know, they may be more likely to call or tell somebody. Right. Um, hey, I fear for my safety, I just got threatened more so than I just got duped and they got a lot of my money.

[00:08:11] Pete Waggoner, Host: So what are some of the common scams that you are seeing? 

[00:08:15] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : One of them that seems to be most well known is the grandparents scam. How that works is, suspicious individuals will, and they, can come across information on social media. Reading obituaries. There's, a whole host of online information out there where suspects can look and say, you know what?

[00:08:33] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : That looks like somebody that I can contact through Facebook or through some sort of social media. I'll make contact and I already know much about them. I look at their photos on social media. I know they have grandkids. I believe that I can call and say I'm one of those grandkids. And the ruse that they use is they call and say, Hey, I've been in a car crash, or I'm in jail.

[00:08:53] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : We went on vacation, you know, and they, they're calling the grandmother, calling the elderly and saying, but don't tell mom and dad, you know, and [00:09:00] grandparents like to believe, they like to help. They get minimal information. Okay. Yep. And we will send money or. I know a, a step further is the grandkid, the suspect calls.

[00:09:10] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : And then there's a second party that they hand the phone to so as to limit the voice contact 

[00:09:15] Pete Waggoner, Host: right


[00:09:16] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : hand the phone to somebody else. Who is that now Suspicious grandkids lawyer. Mm-hmm. Saying, I am representing your grandson and this is what's gonna be needed for him to get out of jail or for us to proceed onto the next.

[00:09:30] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : And the grandparents send it. So it's very, I don't wanna say sophisticated, but they put a lot of work into this on the suspect side, on the criminal side to take advantage of, , an elderly person that really wants to help out a grandchild. 

[00:09:43] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: So 

[00:09:43] Pete Waggoner, Host: they're able to create a 

[00:09:44] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: victim profile?

[00:09:45] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Absolutely. Wow. 

[00:09:46] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: They're also given the information by the grandparent. When they say grandpa, I mean jail. Chad, that's you. Now I know it's Chad. Yeah, it's Chad. And then they go from there. So people unknowingly give them information. [00:10:00] Sadly, I have experience in this one, Scott knows, but my dad was the finance chair for the St.

[00:10:07] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: Croix County Board of Directors Finance chair, which means he was smart in him. I'm at a funeral in Maiden Rock and I get this frantic phone call from my dad. Mike, call me quick. Call me quick. And so he calls me and you know. Tim's in, in the jail. And, um, and we gotta act on this quick. And I'm like what the heck's going on?

[00:10:26] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: Well, he got in a car crash and they're saying he was drinking and he's gonna lose his job and we gotta act on this quick. We gotta make bail so he can get out and, and meet the attorney. And I'm like what, what? You know, like there's a fire, like, what's going on? And I'm thinking to myself, wait a second, you always told me if I got thrown in jail, my a SS was gonna sit in jail.

[00:10:45] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: We're all of a sudden we're gonna bail 'em out. I'm, I'm thinking, wait, what? And so I'm like, slow down, slow down, slow down. Tell me more. I'm at the, I'm at the,, grocery store 'cause I have to wire them the money and I can't, I'm having problems and I'm like, oh my God. Stop. Stop [00:11:00] right now. He would not be able to call you.

[00:11:02] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: And this is a scam, dad. That's called the, you know, the grandparent scam? It's a scam. No, no, no. I I think it's real. 'cause I talked to him. I You didn't talk to him, dad. It's a, it's a ruse. It's a scam. Luckily I was able to have him back off, but that's to me is a great example of someone that was educated, knew money, and yet was still taken advantage of.

[00:11:24] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: He felt horrible about it, but luckily we didn't buy into it. That mean, that's a great example to me of how that works.


[00:11:31] Pete Waggoner, Host: So that's the grandparent family emergency scams. How about the tech support, computer repair scams? Those are pretty wide, aren't they? 

[00:11:41] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Yes. 

[00:11:42] Pete Waggoner, Host: They could be any of, a lot of, it's a big bucket, I guess is what I'm saying.

[00:11:44] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Yeah. And. Many times it originates from an email or you know, a contact via email. And we're seeing a lot more of that as well. These, these virus emails or where it tells you to call, there's a program with your subscription or there's a problem with your [00:12:00] subscription. Give this number a call or respond to this email.

[00:12:03] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Well, once you call and you, they say, yeah, there's an issue give us access to your computer. What is your code to get in? We'll go in and we'll fix this. We'll run something, we'll, we'll do a scan and we'll remove any of the, of the viruses. Oftentimes people give that information up. And once the suspects have access to the computer, they now have any and all of your passwords, they're driving.

[00:12:25] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Yeah, they are completely driving. They've got your bank account. They've got, 'cause many people save their passwords. 

[00:12:31] Pete Waggoner, Host: So they have everybody download any desk. You put that on your desk or software where someone can take control of the computer. They give the code.

[00:12:38] Pete Waggoner, Host: They give 'em the code, and then they go in and then they just start banging around looking for stuff. Mm-hmm. Right While you're sitting there 

[00:12:43] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: I can talk to experience again. , We had that at our house. A link was clicked and then you get that virus that doesn't know if it's malware, whatever they call it.

[00:12:51] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: And then they can get in and then they can send up a popup that said, oh, your computer's crashing. Yeah. You did this. Please quick call this [00:13:00] or click this to get, you know, help right away. Yeah. And I got called and I just said, stop, unplug the damn thing. Luckily then, we didn't have any banking on there.

[00:13:09] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: We didn't have any. Really sophisticated personal stuff on there. More for word and emails and all that. But again, that's how tricky they are and I expect that that's all they do is try to figure out how to scheme and evolve to meet the scheme. 

[00:13:23] Pete Waggoner, Host: Well, and the one thing that happens too

[00:13:25] Pete Waggoner, Host: As the people are getting older, they've been more exposed to computers. I mean, into their seventies, they've been working with them for, I mean, so it's not as like, this is foreign to me, but what I think they're doing really impressively is they're disguising it as a real branded link or something that someone who's savvy, I'd say, like me I have sometimes think twice.

[00:13:47] Pete Waggoner, Host: Do I click this? I think the thing is, is like, , if it seems like you're getting a link. Never click it. You have to just wait it out. And it's usually, it's easier said than done because your first reaction is, oh no. I think when you get older it's a little [00:14:00] tougher, you know, still, because you don't have that critical thinking of this is not Right.

[00:14:04] Pete Waggoner, Host: Is that fair? Like, there, there's a level of maybe lack of knowledge or computer savvy to know what is and what isn't. 

[00:14:12] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Yeah. And I, I think that, like you said the link is there. It's either, an invoice or it's, , a payment due, or, , here's something to fix.


[00:14:20] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Click on the link. And people just wanna take care of that stuff themselves. And then once they get into it, sometimes it's too late, they wait too long.

[00:14:26] Pete Waggoner, Host: How about, this has been happening more government. You owe taxes. Is that out there? 

[00:14:31] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Absolutely. 

[00:14:31] Pete Waggoner, Host: What happens? 

[00:14:32] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : They will call or send an email and they're very sophisticated on the phones now. They have spoof numbers where they can mimic local numbers, where it appears that it's coming from. 

[00:14:42] Pete Waggoner, Host: That's ridiculous.

[00:14:43] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yep. 

[00:14:44] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : We have where they can spoof, for instance, the sheriff's office number out of Hudson, have they? They have. And it's easy to find on many agencies or government websites. Rosters of employees. So now when they call, they have an actual name of a person that is a [00:15:00] government employee. They pose as that.

[00:15:02] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Just last week we had somebody that posed as one of our lieutenants, oh good lord, calling and attempting to do a scam. Well, we will not call to say you owe money, you have an outstanding warrant. You have an IRS debt. And the IRS doesn't call either. Everything is either through mail or some other correspondence, but it's not through a phone call.

[00:15:21] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : You do not have to send money, you do not have to wire money. And we have people that sadly fall victim to the ruse of a government body calling to say they owe money. However. Instead of wiring, we will take gift cards. Please go to Walmart or Target or one of your convenience stores and buy gift cards.

[00:15:42] Pete Waggoner, Host: Apple 500 bucks at a crack 

[00:15:43] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Apple, 500 bucks at a crack. And then send us or tell us the barcode number on the back 


[00:15:49] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : afar. Oh, okay. They then unload those cards okay. With that barcode number. And by the time it's found out, those cards are already empty, whatever the victim loaded on [00:16:00] them cannot get them back.

[00:16:01] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : And Faraway land has now redeemed what was ever on that card without ever touching the card. You 

[00:16:07] Pete Waggoner, Host: know the website, I saw the YouTube videos I was telling you about off the air. That's exactly what they do. It was, it was all the gift card scams. 

[00:16:14] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: I always thought I didn't realize that they just make the barcode on the back and then run it that way. Yeah. 

[00:16:18] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Yep. Send us a photo of the bar barcode so we know that you've done it. Yep. Like a claim code or, 

[00:16:23] Pete Waggoner, Host: and then, then you're thinking, if you're going through this, why would the IRS have me getting a gift card?

[00:16:28] Pete Waggoner, Host: Like really? But it comes back to you're scared and sometimes you don't know. And I, I think sometimes critical thinking could kind of get checked, 

[00:16:37] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: They, they have those, I'm guessing just robotic calls, but even if one out of 1000 works Yep. Boom. They got some decent money. Yeah. 

[00:16:45] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : And it's under threat of arrest.

[00:16:47] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : We will send somebody to your house. You will be arrested if you don't pay for this. The other one too is, jury duty. You miss jury duty in order to purge the warrant that the judge sent out on you. You need to send this. And then they [00:17:00] do the gift card thing. I even had it where somebody called the sheriff's office an employee.

[00:17:04] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Attempting to scam them, claiming that they were me. They walked the phone to me. Can you believe this? It was crazy. Come on. So I'm on the phone with this guy.

[00:17:13] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : To make light of it is what we did. We all sat around and everybody's kind of chuckling as I'm carrying on this conversation with yourself.

[00:17:19] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Yes. And I knew they were not from St. Croix, they were not from Wisconsin. And this went on for about five or 10 minutes, where at the end he finally chuckled, knew the gig was up and hung up on me. But the audacity to call and do that and to carry on.

[00:17:32] Pete Waggoner, Host: That's cold. 

[00:17:33] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : It is.


[00:17:34] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah. I mean, you are law enforcement ahead of it. Yep. And to just be that bold Yes. Is crazy. Do you guys, you know, you hear about, are you able to track if you're, you know, the old time when you can keep someone on the line, you could figure out could you do that?

[00:17:48] Pete Waggoner, Host: Or is that, does that, is that harder to do these days? 

[00:17:51] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : It's, it is very difficult to do. Okay. Um, now if there's multiple calls, for instance, like the gift card scam go to the, that's why they'll also say, [00:18:00] go to the store and buy gift cards. But keep me on the line, keep me on the phone the whole way. If do say that they do, because once that contact is broke, they may lose the fish off the hook or they'll call, get reported.

[00:18:12] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Something could get set up. For the callback to have a professional on the victim side of the line. So now they will even say, keep me on the line drive there. I'll make sure that you get it done.

[00:18:22] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : No, and that's, it's, yeah they know how to keep the fish on. Is that 

[00:18:25] Pete Waggoner, Host: when they're done with that fish, do they then go through that where they get a different localized number or something?

[00:18:30] Pete Waggoner, Host: Do they change numbers to the next person or does that not matter? 

[00:18:33] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Uh, they will change numbers. 

[00:18:34] Pete Waggoner, Host: Okay. 

[00:18:35] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : They will change numbers. And we've also had it where they revictimize a victim because it was so easy the first time, God, they will call back and get 'em again. Is it a different scam I need? No, I need more money off of like the grandparent one.

[00:18:49] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : You know what, we ran into another snag. The attorney, we got a hold for another court case. The attorney's gonna cost more in this foreign country. Send more.' Cause , they can sense the vulnerability.

[00:18:59] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: I've [00:19:00] gotten those calls that say I'm so and so from the retired sheriff's, association. And we'd like to have a donation. And I'll say, that's excellent because I am a retired sheriff.

[00:19:10] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: Tell me how you're gonna use it. Click Hello? Hello. Isn't impersonating an officer? Retired. So it is not acting well, it, I wouldn't tell anybody on this podcast to do that, but I would just like, alright, enough of this. You know, 

[00:19:22] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : It does get them to hang up quickly because they believe that, alright, I'm dealing with somebody that's gonna know the lingo, that's gonna know.

[00:19:29] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Some of the. Some of the terms we're using and be able to see through it,

[00:19:32] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: the other one, we get a lot here, and I don't understand why they keep calling, but it's like, it's Excel and we're gonna shut your power off.

[00:19:38] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: And so now we just say, okay, good, we'll send everybody home. So they 

[00:19:41] Pete Waggoner, Host: do 

[00:19:42] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: that, oh, all the time. Once a month. And do you ever say, Hey? Yeah, like, I've got my bill at zero. What are you talking about? Well, the first time I, you know, I would get calls like, Hey, they're gonna shut our power off. I'm like. Who called?

[00:19:52] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: And then we'd be like, no, nobody calls you for information or money if they're legit, right? They just don't. And so we [00:20:00] never bought into that one. 

[00:20:00] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : So I will say like with the sheriff's office or IRS or these scammers that call and say, Hey, you owe money. My strong suggestion on, on the next steps is get a contact number to call them back.


[00:20:13] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : And then when you hang up with them, contact, get the correct number off of the Sheriff's Office website or the IRS a legitimate phone call and call. Even the non-emergency number at dispatch. Hey, so-and-so is attempting to contact me. Lieutenant so-and-so, is he working today? And they'll put you through to that lieutenant if he is.

[00:20:31] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Or if he's not working, you know, that that's a, a fake call. Or if he does get sent and the lieutenant is working or whatever deputy they claim they are they'll be able to tell you if that's a real call, call. Well, you could tell right away by the voice. You absolutely, you 

[00:20:44] Pete Waggoner, Host: know, there, is there an accent or not, you know, that's consistent to what you're hearing.

[00:20:47] Pete Waggoner, Host: Which which is crazy. So you're saying fact check it. 

[00:20:49] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Fact check it real time. We'll never stay on the line to send money. How about the, the, 

[00:20:54] Pete Waggoner, Host: before I ask you about this last scam is this like a large group do you [00:21:00] think? Or are these small pockets of businesses throughout the world? What, 

[00:21:03] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : who's organizing this?

[00:21:04] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : I think it's probably a mixture of both. I think there are some smaller groups and singular predators. But I think there's rings as well. I think there's a large, compilations corporations, however it might be in, in other areas of the world, that this is their business,

[00:21:20] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: when you're talking 3.4 billion, that's a lot of chain. You bet. And I'm gonna guess, maybe this is being a little biased, but some are tied to, um, the countries. Absolutely. 

[00:21:30] Pete Waggoner, Host: Well that's what I'm asking. 

[00:21:31] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: Yeah. 

[00:21:31] Pete Waggoner, Host: I mean, that's crazy. So what's the sweepstakes lottery? I want a prize bit. How does that work?

[00:21:37] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : That'll be similar where they will reach out and say, you won a prize, or, we need to send you some money. But in order for us to do that, we need your banking information. We'll put it right into your account. We don't, you share everything with us. Or for a, for this fee, we'll get this as well.

[00:21:50] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : We'll get a smaller amount that way. , For us to process this, you need to send us x amount of money, couple hundred dollars, couple thousand dollars for you to receive your million dollar [00:22:00] payout, or just give us your banking account. We'll put it right in there. You can save the handling fee and we'll do it all for you.

[00:22:05] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : And then they got you by the shackles and, and then they got you, they've got your banking information. Or if they don't have your banking information, you'll still send them money for that transfer fee. But they can pull out as 

[00:22:13] Pete Waggoner, Host: long as they want until you so it, until you, you figure it out 

[00:22:16] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: until it is empty.

[00:22:17] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: Damn. I bet you we could talk all day about different ones here and there. So for all these people that spend every waking minute to steal and scam, what can we do to safeguard our elderly loved ones? 

[00:22:26] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Knowledge. If they know these scams are out there, if they know the scams that are used.

[00:22:32] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : They're gonna be that much more, uh, difficult to become victims, you know, if they know what I know of this grandparent scam or Okay, the family told me that the cops or IRS will never call me, they're more likely to decline that call and not send that money. I think it's just sharing this information, right.

[00:22:48] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Um, it's probably the best safeguard for it. And it doesn't hurt for family to check in and say, Hey, have you gotten any of these? Have you heard of this? It's okay, right? To talk about that. If you've done this, when was it? Let's [00:23:00] look to see if they're still draining your account. Please have that communication line open.

[00:23:04] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Check in on them, but also try to educate. ' cause this is quite frankly, foreign to some this technology. Mm-hmm. And again, people want to be good. They're naive. They're naive, but they want to help and they're willing to send money. 

[00:23:15] Pete Waggoner, Host: Where do you think our elderly are at as far as understanding it's okay to be told of these scams?

[00:23:20] Pete Waggoner, Host: Do you think they're understanding more today than maybe even five years ago? 

[00:23:23] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : I think they're understanding the current scams more, but there's new scams coming out every day.

[00:23:29] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : You know, you look at some of the emails and there's a letter off in the return email address. They are also getting so sophisticated, they're using correct letterhead when they're sending out emails of actual businesses, but the return emails are off by one number. That takes you to criminal land crazy.

[00:23:44] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : So the information is out there. But in order to, for these criminals to continue to be successful, they need to change up their game, and it's changing so fast. 

[00:23:53] Pete Waggoner, Host: How do you reduce exposure?

[00:23:55] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : There are some computer like, Norton or some other, online [00:24:00] protections that will alert you when, , X amount is coming out of your account or your information is compromised and put out on the dark. web. Your passwords have shown up. So there are some protections.


[00:24:11] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : But again, really it's just knowledge of what's coming in. 

[00:24:14] Pete Waggoner, Host: Do you think banks are doing a better job of saying, Hey, this is a really different looking bank account. We're not gonna move this money until you prove it. I know, mine does. Do you think that's happening more often? 

[00:24:26] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : , I think banks are I'll tell you a, a personal story that is actually kind of, I use it comically to, to how businesses are assisting as well.

[00:24:35] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : And Mike's aware, we do a stop drugs and alcohol abuse calendar contest for students grades four through seven in St. Cro County. And we've done this, it was actually something started by Charlie Grant. Back about 35 years ago. Wow. To win, uh, as we choose some of these wonderful artistry photos that these kids draw and we put it into a calendar, they each get a $50 gift card , for their artwork.

[00:24:59] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Well, we [00:25:00] pick 41 winners each year for all the, all the months, and then the backup winners. So I went to Target to buy 41 gift cards one morning, not in uniform, in plain clothes. So as I'm walking up to the counter with 41 gift cards, oh, you were like, I had five employees all come in to include the manager believing I was being scammed.

[00:25:20] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Once I explained to them what I was doing, they're like, okay, yep, you're good. But they're watching that also. What does that tell you though? Like, they 

[00:25:27] Pete Waggoner, Host: probably 

[00:25:27] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : see 

[00:25:28] Pete Waggoner, Host: it all 

[00:25:28] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : the time. They see it more often than we think. Oh, I believe they. Avert Right. And help more than we know. But it's also their education and awareness too.

[00:25:36] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : ' cause once that money's gone well, now are they on the hook for something? They're gonna believe they, you know, the, the victim's gonna say, well, I'm never go in there again. So they have a vested interest in trying to stop this fraud as well. And I think that has increased. As sheriff, were you 

[00:25:50] Pete Waggoner, Host: grateful, by the way?

[00:25:50] Pete Waggoner, Host: Were you like, Hey, thanks for doing that. Or were you like, Hey, you know who I am? Where, where were you at on that spectrum? 

[00:25:55] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : I originally was, do I look vulnerable? Exactly.

[00:25:58] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: But 

[00:25:58] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : then as I walked [00:26:00] out of their m white. You know, that was a really good thing and I'm glad you're doing right.

[00:26:03] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Mm-hmm. Right, right. Um, and actually thanked the kid at the counter. I said, you know what? That's really good that you guys did that. I appreciate it. Mm-hmm. Um, dig into it a little more and that's awesome. Try to, so, but yeah, right away I, I'm like, alright, what are you guys all around me for? I'm not shoplifting, I'm carrying a bunch of cards.

[00:26:15] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : But that was it. And that was their intent. And so I was on the receiving end of them trying to help. Did you get a pat down?

[00:26:21] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: No. So you had mentioned knowledge, knowledge, knowledge. Um, one thing we tell people here too is when they have the children, you know, sometimes the children will come in, parents are separate, but we'll say, try to review your parents' financial records.

[00:26:34] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: Get on their bank accounts as a co-signing or something so they can, they can monitor it too and be like, I've got one on my card that I'll get alerted on certain stuff if they suspect something suspicious. And so I think that's part of that knowledge, isn't it? Is getting more active with your parents.


[00:26:50] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: Being put on that call list or something to be alerted. And you were talking before too about that website on, these complaints or these scams that they [00:27:00] can go what did you call it again? It would be the IC 

[00:27:03] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : three website. And IC three stands for Internet Crimes Complaint Center and it's IC three.gov for those individuals that are victims of these online crimes.

[00:27:15] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : And once that is filled out on there, it'll ask you a bunch of questions. , How were you scammed? What was the monetary amount? Do you know what destination it went to? And that is one of the FBI field offices that will, look through some of those. We had one instance where we got in rather short order the victim to fill that paperwork out, get that sent in.

[00:27:40] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : And this was back in 2023 where Indian authorities out of country were working with the victim in this case to shut, down , the scam call center. So there was a success story of time being of the essence reporting and trying to stop transactions before the recipient, the suspect, the criminal can [00:28:00] withdraw that money.

[00:28:00] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : And that can be any type of scam, any type of online scam. 

[00:28:04] Pete Waggoner, Host: So we talked about, other forms of reducing exposure. One is to opt out of chunk mail, marketing lists, the telemarketing calls. We've talked, there, there are call blocking services and apps that you can do if, if you're older and you don't know how to do that, that again comes into, Hey, kids, can you help me out here?

[00:28:19] Pete Waggoner, Host: Right. Just communicating. 

[00:28:20] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Absolutely. And, and they want to help. I mean, your family's gonna say, absolutely. How can we, and they're gonna be kids or grandkids that are wiz kids at this technology because this is what they've grown up on. They can maneuver their way around technology and they enjoy doing it 

[00:28:35] Pete Waggoner, Host: well.

[00:28:35] Pete Waggoner, Host: There are some products out there too that are almost scam blocker type things that if you, if you search, you can find them. And I think if you're elderly, you shouldn't worry about, you know, I can't handle this.

[00:28:48] Pete Waggoner, Host: It's okay to ask for the help.

[00:28:49] Pete Waggoner, Host: You know what I did with my 

[00:28:50] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: parents too is don't answer the phone. Because if you don't answer it, they're not gonna leave a message and say, call me back.

[00:28:55] Pete Waggoner, Host: If you don't recognize the number, it's okay for it to roll the voicemail.

[00:28:58] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: He said though, they're [00:29:00] calling you from numbers you recognize now, so you can't even trust that. But yeah, there is that. If you see a number that you know, you're gonna answer it, but if you don't answer, is it safe to say that they're not gonna leave a message and you're not gonna call 'em back?

[00:29:12] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: They are not gonna leave. 

[00:29:13] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : And if they do, you will be able to tell more than likely that it is probably a scam or it will at least allow you to do some backgrounding and checking. To see if, when you, if you do elect a call back if there's any other scams out there like that. 

[00:29:26] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah. Don't we know typically you call, goes to voicemail if it's a buddy or a family member Yeah.

[00:29:31] Pete Waggoner, Host: You hang up. I know you called. That's your mm-hmm. Signal for me to call you back, uh, or text. And if you don't get those things, you probably have a pretty good idea. Yeah. 

[00:29:40] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: You know, do I remember when all this stuff started like 10 years ago or whatever, you could do a do not call list. 

[00:29:45] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Yes.

[00:29:45] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: I'm gonna just take a stab at it that these, they know how to go around those things. 

[00:29:49] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : They know how to go around those. There are still some do not calls. Okay. I mean, that, that is still effective in what it can be effective at.

[00:29:55] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : And, and there are some apps now where what you call somebody, and I just got [00:30:00] one the other day. I called and they said, , you get the voice message of your, , please state your name and the reason for your call,

[00:30:07] Pete Waggoner, Host: how about cultivating healthy skeptic, uh, skepticism. Is there a level where you can be like, too cynical in this world, or what do you think?

[00:30:13] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : I, I will go back to the eighties when Ronald Reagan said, trust but verify. Oh 

[00:30:17] Pete Waggoner, Host: yeah. 

[00:30:18] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : You can trust who's on the other end, but now verify it. Okay. I owe money. I trust that I owe money. I'm gonna verify now that I owe money. You can do that before you start sending all these things. So it's an old adage that I've always thought, um, even when dealing with, individuals that come up even in, in, in our, in our profession.

[00:30:35] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Mm-hmm. Somebody calls to make a complaint. I trust that what you're telling me is true, but now I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna verify that those facts are true. 

[00:30:42] Pete Waggoner, Host: You're not blindly accepting it. 

[00:30:44] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Correct. Just like these calls, scam calls, you can, okay. They sound trustworthy. This grandparent scheme, that sounds like my grandkid, but I can verify if it is, and I can call the parents.

[00:30:53] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : I can call some of their friends. I can call their siblings. Hey, is Johnny down in in Mexico? No, he's right here. He's in his room. [00:31:00] What do you need? So verify. Well, that's a 

[00:31:02] Pete Waggoner, Host: very, very important if anybody gets anything out of that grandparents team, that right there, 

[00:31:06] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: I would say to one of that two is verify with one of your kids or a trusted individual.

[00:31:12] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: Um, so you don't get taken advantage of because you're vulnerable. Yes. Have somebody that can come in clear minded that doesn't maybe have a, well, they could have a vested interest, but they're not biased. 

[00:31:21] Pete Waggoner, Host: Correct. Yes. And it's okay to discuss this with family members and friends. 

[00:31:24] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : It's encouraged to discuss it because even if you are a victim, um, your sharing your story can help others not be victims.

[00:31:32] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : You may have already lost some money, but think of who you may help. It could be a family member, it could be another friend. It could be somebody in the residential area that, that you live in. Share the story. This is how I got duped. It sucks, but don't be a victim. 

[00:31:44] Pete Waggoner, Host: This stuff is real 

[00:31:45] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : knowledge's. Knowledge, knowledge, knowledge. You know, that can, I know this is down a different road, but it's all, all technology.

[00:31:52] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Tonight they are in Croix Central and they're putting on a presentation of sex exploitation. And it's now the youth that are [00:32:00] being exploited Sure. Through sex exploitation of who they believe is they're hooking up online or they've met, somebody that they're gonna, and this is all online and then will send me photos mm-hmm.

[00:32:11] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : And they end up sending compromising photos or maybe some nude photos. Mm-hmm. And that then this, the criminal on the other end now has this juvenile's very compromising body photos. And then they say, send me money. Or I'm releasing these,

[00:32:24] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : it is gonna be bad. I'm gonna embarrass you. I'm gonna send it to all your friends list. 

[00:32:28] Pete Waggoner, Host: Where do they where? Okay, so you hear about where do they, how does a kid know where to go for that? 

[00:32:34] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : That's the problem. Many times they don't. And that's what some of these exploitation presentations are. They're shame, they it's shame.

[00:32:40] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : They need there's a way through it. There's, you know, oftentimes you hear some parents say, if you send 'em photos, your wife is over. It's, you know, you're never gonna get a job. So don't send photos. Well then if they do fall victim and they do send something, what that kid's got in their head is wife's over, I'm done.

[00:32:56] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : It's done. Mm-hmm. I'll never get a job. I'll never. And some lead to suicide. And that's what [00:33:00] this exploitation is about. Bullying. Yep. 

[00:33:01] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: It's horrible. That's absolutely. It's just like the elderly are afraid of their independence. The youth are also afraid of the consequences. It's horrible.

[00:33:09] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: It is. I told my girls to don't accept anything. Don't ever ask. I mean, but is it a crime for a juvenile to send a picture? Is that, is that pornography? If they send a picture of themselves as somebody, I assumed it was, 

[00:33:22] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : if a juvenile sends it, it is not, but whoever's on the receiving end 

[00:33:26] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: it 

[00:33:27] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Is Oh, they would be in possession.

[00:33:28] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : ' cause they, they were the requester. They were the recipient. Okay. Okay. Yeah. 

[00:33:31] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: So they would have considered child pornography on their phone. 

[00:33:33] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Correct. We even get into some of those, those gray areas. When the 18-year-old is dating the 17-year-old and they're exchanging photos and they know each other.

[00:33:43] Pete Waggoner, Host: They're dating or whatever. Yeah. They're, they're dating. A junior and a senior in high school. 18 to 16. Yes. 

[00:33:47] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Yes. Well, the 16-year-old sending photos to the 18-year-old. The 18-year-old in possession is child porn. By statute. 



[00:33:53] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Even though they're consenting in it is just, it's great.

[00:33:56] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : That gets against the law Now that, that's a, that's a, that's a [00:34:00] non intent of criminality. Right. We think of child porn as, as somebody that is preying on juveniles. Someone 

[00:34:07] Pete Waggoner, Host: who has no idea this is a person in a shadowy room somewhere, or whatever it is. Yeah. I think doing their thing, 

[00:34:12] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: moral of this whole thing is, 30 years ago when you started the internet was not an issue, and now you can figure out how to make a bomb.

[00:34:19] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: You can figure out all the, the difficult things in life. You can see the most heinous things in and your one click away from holy health. Right. 

[00:34:28] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : And yes. And the one click. You will never get it back. Right. It is out there not only for all to see it is now out there potentially forever. Mm-hmm. And will rear its head many years down the road.

[00:34:38] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : How 

[00:34:39] Pete Waggoner, Host: much has technology impacted what you're investigating and doing versus how it's helped you? Is it a fine line? Is it equivalent in, in the years you've been in this position,


[00:34:50] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : you know? Well, technology, you know, is the best thing to happen in society and the worst thing to happen in society. Right. In society.

[00:34:56] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : There are things that we utilize in our profession, one [00:35:00] is, for example, we'll go back to the tangible. We have a burglary. Instead of the old days of, oh, we need to go to the pawn shop and look, we look on Facebook, marketplace victims look on Facebook market Marketplace and say, Hey, there's my stuff, 

[00:35:10] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : And then we're able to, through those IP addresses, track down who. Either well was the criminal or who was in possession of the stolen property.

[00:35:18] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: What would you say, what percentage of the investigator's work is tied to cyber, cyber crime? 

[00:35:24] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Each and every investigator somehow in the crimes they

[00:35:27] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : investigate is cyber or technology, forensic technology, cell phones, , we have, , several individuals that handle ICAP cases, which is internet crimes against children. That is the child porn we were just discussing.

[00:35:40] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : , There are the unwin frauds that we've been discussing the pitfalls, but even on the burglaries and we're online looking, you know, so much of, much of our investigations are done in front of a computer screen.

[00:35:50] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : It's 

[00:35:50] Pete Waggoner, Host: crazy when you think about it, right? 

[00:35:52] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Yes. And these cell phones, the amount of data and information they have on them, you know, not only what are you looking at, where you're [00:36:00] traveling, where you stopped all of your online banking. How many times have you gone 

[00:36:03] Pete Waggoner, Host: there? 

[00:36:04] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : How many times have you gone there?

[00:36:05] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : These cell phones are good and bad.

[00:36:08] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: On one thing we haven't talked about, and we could talk about it all day, I'm just gonna make mention of it, but, and I pray for you on this, that we're just getting into AI and that is gonna make things so much more exponential in their tools against your fighting back, I think it's just gonna be a very hard thing for you guys.

[00:36:27] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : That is another rabbit hole with AI and voice recognition. Mm-hmm. Where, for example, we're starting to see the tidbits of, I will, a scammer will call and you'll answer, they'll have a conversation now they've got all of your words that they can splice and dice. Put together, have another that sounds like you, for example.

[00:36:46] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Yep. To call and find another victim. Oh yeah. I talked to Mike. We had, you know, he called, he left me a message also that 

[00:36:51] Pete Waggoner, Host: takes, that takes the whole the whole grandparent one scam where like, you think commonly, like you don't, I know my grandson. [00:37:00] That is not him. Well, now you can take, somehow, if you capture it, that person's voice some way, somehow you can now through ai, have a conversation with that grandparent and they're like, oh my God.

[00:37:11] Pete Waggoner, Host: And 

[00:37:11] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: again, the the, the kids are putting out their videos on Facebook and so all they all over the place. Yeah. AI pick up on this voice and tell it to say this, and then you could be extorted. You put the manipulation of video. Yeah. Oh, I know. It's crazy. 

[00:37:24] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : They're, they're just moving mouths 

[00:37:25] Pete Waggoner, Host: and putting messages.

[00:37:27] Pete Waggoner, Host: They're making it look like you're saying these words. 

[00:37:29] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Yes. 

[00:37:29] Pete Waggoner, Host: It's crazy, isn't it? 

[00:37:30] Pete Waggoner, Host: Could become real problematic with it if we're not careful.

[00:37:33] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Uh, the, the checks and balances are, we are losing the battle on the checks and balances.

[00:37:38] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Right. And even, you know, going back 15 minutes, the trust would verify. It's now very difficult even to verify when you talk about ai. I, ' cause it's real, it 

[00:37:44] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: feels so real. 

[00:37:45] Pete Waggoner, Host: Anything else we want to, uh, you know, we talked about, you know, being alert, be smart, always being control.

[00:37:50] Pete Waggoner, Host: And then limit access. I think this is interesting. You're suggesting to get rid of documents and things and don't have 'em laying around. 

[00:37:56] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Yeah. When you talk about getting rid of documents, it isn't just throwing them in the [00:38:00] garbage.

[00:38:00] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Yeah, there are shredding, there are places that do shredding. Um, if you have a shredder at home you have the ability to grab numbers and input into, into a computer or, , your banking account information credit cards when you're done with them, oftentimes how many credit cards do we go through where one gets compromised?

[00:38:16] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : They send you a new one? What do you do with the old one? Throw all the garbage. Yeah. 

[00:38:18] Pete Waggoner, Host: Well, my greatest visual of shredding documents is Dwight shrewd in the office that made it like, yeah, I, I can get one of those little things. Seriously. I have one because of that and shred 'em up.

[00:38:29] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: I really appreciate you bringing alertness to this and awareness to this, and. There's websites, there are resources to help people. And like you said, it's knowledge, knowledge, knowledge.

[00:38:39] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: And it's about being active with your parents or your kids for that matter, like we just talked about. And being proactive and not reactive. 

[00:38:45] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : My guess is everybody that's listening to this knows someone that has been the victim of a scam. And if they don't know anybody, that means that person just hasn't told them yet that they've been a victim.

[00:38:56] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Everybody is touched by this and the amount of [00:39:00] loss of financial security and investments and bank accounts is astounding. And there's sadly no, I hear the sirens. Yeah, right. There's no good, there's no good end in sight for how we get through this other than education. One of the things I appreciate though, too is Mike and I both shared personal experiences with real life incidences.

[00:39:19] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Where we've been touched, experienced we know about some of these things 

[00:39:23] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: and it just goes to show you that even the, the ones that are there to protect us, you're vulnerable too. You're just like the rest of us. Yes. Yeah. So this has been fantastic. I love this one. 

[00:39:32] Pete Waggoner, Host: It's one of my favorites. This has been really great and it's really okay to be aware, to be informed, be smart.

[00:39:38] Pete Waggoner, Host: Don't worry about being rude. I think that's important too. 

[00:39:40] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yes. 

[00:39:41] Pete Waggoner, Host: That's, don't worry. You don't need to be anybody's buddy if you don't know him. Mm-hmm. 

[00:39:44] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Right. You don't need to entertain numbers.

[00:39:46] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : You don't know exactly. , It's good to be connected, but at times there's too much connection to other parts of the world that aren't doing us any good. 

[00:39:54] Pete Waggoner, Host: And can I leave on this note? Don't click a link or a text link. That you shouldn't be getting. That makes no sense.

[00:39:59] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : [00:40:00] Don't send money. 

[00:40:00] Pete Waggoner, Host: Don't send money, and don't buy gift cards unless you're doing 'em for your correct. Yes, yes. I call you for 

[00:40:05] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: money. It's okay. Well, it's actually expected, usual. Yeah.

[00:40:08] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: Hey, you got an extra 20 I could borrow. It's been 23 years, but I still hear sirens and I'm ready to run. I misfiring. Did you feel that there? Oh, hell yeah. 

[00:40:16] Pete Waggoner, Host: You did too. I noticed, I watched you, I saw you kind of had a little, what's going on here? I would, I'd be talking and then I 

[00:40:21] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: would be like, ' cause that's what I was, isn't that, I mean, I'd miss it.

[00:40:24] Mike O'Connell, O'Connell Family Funeral Homes: I dream about it once a week and for some reason I dreamed about the sheriff's department a lot. I was gonna go into law enforcement. I started driving along and then I got offered a full-time paramedic job,

[00:40:32] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : When you say, what am I, what am I missing? My thought goes to where am I supposed to be?

[00:40:36] Pete Waggoner, Host: Right. 

[00:40:36] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Am I needed somewhere? 

[00:40:37] Pete Waggoner, Host: how can I help? 

[00:40:38] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : How can I help? 

[00:40:39] Pete Waggoner, Host: Yeah. 

[00:40:39] St. Croix County Sheriff Scott Knutson. : Well, with 

[00:40:39] Pete Waggoner, Host: that said, we better let you go. That's really good stuff. A great way to end this. Sheriff awesome stuff. Michael O'Connell, Connell. Family Funeral Homes. Good grief. That's a good one. So long everybody.

[00:40:49] Pete Waggoner, Host: Thank you so much. Thanks, Scott. Piece of cake. Boom.